Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring

[graeme]

Hello Hans,

Thank you for your translated explanation, you, Bob, Bill Harvey and Bruce and anyone else must understand that I am an electrical layman when it comes to things other than volts, ohms and amps.
But I am following this discussion quietly in the back ground (until I posted what I thought was a good explanitary picture of electrical basics.)
I'll now go to the corner of the room and watch quietly as the smart people carry on with this.

Regards
Graeme

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ducwiz ...
"Greame,
your picture shows exactly what I would explain to an electrical layman! "

____ I-myself had meant to thank Graeme for finding that depiction which indicates an emulation of my 'bottle-neck' analogy, (although the bottle-neck is supposed to refer-to the ONE place in a circuit which has the greatest resistance !).


____ I'm glad to learn that you (ducwiz) haven't totally abandoned us !
__ Ever-since you placed your first-post telling of being from Germany, I've wanted to ask you about something in particular,, but because of your excellent written-English, I had then assumed that you must actually be an Englishman who merely resides in Germany. _ But now that you've since revealed having been born & raised as a German, this has now become the optimum opportunity to finally ask you about that which I've wanted to learn of ! ...
__ I understand that Germans are fairly more intelligent than the average human-being, so I thus figure that their German-language would have more advanced terminology than most languages and-thus possibly also more technical-terminology (than the English-language has).
__ What I've wanted to ask you about specifically is, the German equivalents of the English technical-terms of: 'voltage' ; 'tension' ; & 'potential' , and their definitions. ...
Our fellow-member 'MotoMike' would have us believe that all these terms pretty-much mean the very same thing. _ But I KNOW & understand that each of those terms have their very-own specific definition with specifically varied intended-usage.
I figure that the German-language has AT-LEAST three terms to cover the various definitions that those three English-terms cover.
__ So what I'm asking of you Hans, is to have each of those three individual English-terms translated into their specific German-equivalents, and then have each of their individual specific German-definitions translated into English.
As I think it would be fairly interesting to learn how the Germans specifically define EACH of those three independent tech.terms, individually !
____ If you don't care to perform that request, or find it to be too difficult to accomplish,, then please feel excused from the request.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

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Rewound coil;
#24 wire, ten layers, the first two layers was nine feet, but as I get to the outside layers, it's obviously taking more wire, so this could well be in excess of fifty feet. I'm tempted to unwind it and measure...
This wind is to see the MAXIMUM that could be wound onto a small bobbin (spool), and probably is not what would be used. Resistance measured 1.4 ohms with my bluepoint meter, and 1.6 with another reliable meter here in the building.
Plenty of room on the stator, but again some of that winding will probably come back off.

Bruce.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" so this could well be in excess of fifty feet. I'm tempted to unwind it and measure... "

____ I wouldn't bother to do that. _ Cuz didn't it take you over an hour to wind it ? According to the chart you've left links to, the length should be between a whopping 54.5 to 62.3 feet long !



" This wind is to see the MAXIMUM that could be wound onto a small bobbin (spool), "

____ Looks like 22 rows (of loop-turns), so that's about 220 total loop-turns that you've managed to fit around that small-spool.



" and probably is not what would used. "

____ Indeed likely not, as that wire appears to be TOO-thin.
However, it may make an interesting test-subject for Bill to test-out.



" Resistance measured 1.4 ohms "

____ That amount of resistance would be okay if it weren't going to be combined-with another power-coil in 'series', but that rather high amount of resistance may-not work-out.
____ We need to know the amperage-consumption of your ign.system.



" some of that winding will probably come back off. "

____ Since it has turned-out so nice & fairly neat, I think it should be left as is, and tested,, or else, remove it all completely and replace with #23-gauge.


Enlightened-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Bob says;"____ That amount of resistance would be okay if it weren't going to be combined-with another power-coil in 'series', but that rather high amount of resistance may-not work-out. "

Bob, what do you see as your goal for an acceptable resistance reading, just for instance on this coil I just wound?
I'll unwind it until I get that reading, and see what's left of the coil. That may help show if the wire is too small..


Why am I using #24 wire,

Bob says;"
____ Hear that Bruce ?
So I suggest that you get started at your earliest opportunity, to take some #24-gauge wire (give or take one gauge-size), and do a practice winding-job on the pair of bobbins which you already have and send your resulted power-coil pair to Bill for some testing. "

"Give or take" could just as easily landed me at #25, though I saw that as a little unreasonable...
So 24 is what I went to aquire, not to mention #23 was not something I could put my hands on at the time.
That was just Monday morning, this is Wednesday.


I'll be more than happy to wind whatever you need, but as you can see,
I don't need no practice!

Bruce.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" what do you see as your goal for an acceptable resistance reading, just for instance on this coil I just wound? "

____ The answer to that, is how much resistance your load-system has (with the lights off),, as we wish to make-sure that IT will be the 'bottle-neck' rather than your prime-winding !
This is why I've been prodding you to discover how much current your (lights off) load-system draws.



" I'll unwind it until I get that reading, and see what's left of the coil. That may help show if the wire is too small.. "

____ I don't see that as a GOOD-solution to much of anything.
Perhaps instead of combining it in series with the large-spool,, an exact same amount of loop-turns could be wound onto the large-spool and the pair then rather connected-together in parallel ('E' style).



" Why am I using #24 wire, "

____ I assumed because that was the gauge-size which you happened to have most available.



" "Give or take" could just as easily landed me at #25, "

____ At the time when I had suggested that range, I was then concerned with wishing to make-sure that a substantial number of additional loop-turns could be wound onto the bobbins -(empty spool). _ And according-to the involved math*, gauge-24 should've only resulted with just a 60% increase in the number of possible additional layers. _ So that's why I was so surprised that you had managed to achieve 6 additional layers (where I had only expected just 6 layers total) !
(* The total height of the original 4-layers of #20 is 128-thousandths -(only 3.25mm),
so I had assumed that same amount of height would hold 6-layers of #24, which would be .120" !)
__ Can you measure the actual thickness of your chosen wire, to make-sure that it's indeed a full .020" thick ?
Cuz I can't directly account for how you could've managed to fit 10-layers totaling .200" -(5mm) in the same amount of used spool-winding space.



" not to mention #23 was not something I could put my hands on at the time. "

____ When you rewind the large spool -(a bobbin with some wrapped wire),, use gauge-22, IF you can't get #23.



" but as you can see,
I don't need no practice! "

____ I'm somewhat surprised about that, as I know that such thin wire is extra difficult to wind straight & neatly !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Here are a couple more things to think about...

Bob says;"
____ Looks like 22 rows (of loop-turns), so that's about 220 total loop-turns that you've managed to fit around that small-spool.
____ according-to the involved math, gauge-24 should've only resulted with just a 60% increase in the number of possible additional layers. _ So that's why I was so surprised that you had managed to achieve 6 additional layers (where I had only expected just 6 layers total) "

When I wound that #24, I used ALL available space on that empty bobbin to get the maximum amount of wire on there.
It has used up much more space on that bobbin than the original #20 wire did. IF I had ocupied the same space with the #24 wire that the #20 wire ocupied, then probably it would have been close to the 60% you expected.

Which brings us to... more #20 wire could be applied to the bobbins than was origionally put on there to completly fill the bobbins to create more turns to cut the magnetic field ( with the original size wire). The original coils on that bobbin did not completely fill all available space.



__ Can you measure the actual thickness of your chosen wire, to make-sure that it's a full .020" thick ? "

I can certainly do that.... tomorrow AM.

Bob says;"____ I'm somewhat surprised about that, as I know that such thin wire is extra difficult to wind straight & neatly ! "

Certainly not the first or smallest wire I've wound,, and cretainly won't be my last.

Bob says;"____ I wouldn't bother to do that. _ Cuz didn't it take you over an hour to wind it ? According to the chart you've left links to, the length should be between a whopping 54.5 to 62.3 feet long ! "

Yea, about 45 minutes.


Next thought;
Just to be clear ( 'cause it's not clear in my head yet...) the concept of this stator concerning the wound spools, will all of the coils on the spools be the same physical size, regardless of whether they reside on a small bobbin or a large bobbin? IE: will I wind the large bobbin as if it were a small one? I would leave an empty space equal to the difference in size between the small bobbin and large bobbin, behind the wound coil of the large spool. ???


Tests on my ignition load coming up, ( I got busy this week at work).
Bruce.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" When I wound that #24, I used ALL available space on that empty bobbin to get the maximum amount of wire on there.
It has used up much more space on that bobbin than the original #20 wire did. "

____ I hadn't counted-on obtaining so MUCH additional length through THAT means also as well.
(So a 'rethink' is now in order.)



" more #20 wire could be applied to the bobbins than was origionally put on there to completly fill the bobbins to create more turns to cut the magnetic field
The original coils on that bobbin did not completely fill all available space.

____ I can see going-ahead & filling-up whatever space was obviously allotted-for (but wasn't taken full advantage of by the stock-winding),, however, any slight overrunning of the normally allotted space, should-not be called-for. _ But even-so, we wish to significantly lengthen the winding as much as REASONABLY possible, (so as to not stray from our intended goal).
__ I'm now thinking that the expected-need for gauge-#23, can now be abandoned,, as it seems that you'd be capable of finding sufficient space for plenty long enough length of gauge-#22.
__ Since you don't seem to be much bothered by the notion of doing a rewind-job, could you try winding your large-bobbin with gauge-#18,, just to see how many loop-turns of that thicker gauge which you can possibly get fitted onto it ?



" will all of the coils on the spools be the same physical size, regardless of whether they reside on a small bobbin or a large bobbin? "

____ Well since we wish to make the winding of each small/large-pair as long as possible, then it inevitably stands-to-reason that we want the large-bobbin to be as fuller as possible, (just as Ducati had taken advantage-of) !



" will I wind the large bobbin as if it were a small one? "

____ Well in such case of preferring to connect ALL-6 power-coils all in parallel, THEN your-notion would be a concern. _ But since the (so far) intended-goal is to (at-least) achieve the proven results of the '3-sectioned' alt.stator (which Bill had wired-up & tested), we thus-then really ought-to take full-advantage of all the additional winding-space that the large-bobbins provide !

____ Do you have any-idea of how much longer you could possibly wind additional #20 length, onto the bobbins ?
Cuz if it's a fairly significant increase, then we never should've had-to consider the thinner wire-gauges.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

What are the consequences of spinning two or more strands around the bobbin simultaneously
in order to obtain lower impedance with the shorter parallel windings?

Seems like I should know the answer to this but can't quite reconcile it, it seems in one of those
past schemes I must have wired the stock coils to have similar effect but can't recall.
Just as soon as I hit 'Submit' it will come to me...

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" What are the consequences of spinning two or more strands around the bobbin simultaneously "

____ I've leave that for Bruce to answer for us.



" in order to obtain lower impedance with the shorter parallel windings? "

____ If not a problem to accomplish, that (rather novel) idea would then allow the same (60ft ?) length of #24-wire to have only 1/4th as much resistance !
So therefore, the 1.6-ohms (max) that Bruce had measured for his extended winding, would thus-then be reduced to just .4-ohms for the same total-length ! _ Which in-turn, if logically continued for the large-bobbin as well,, would then keep the total-resistance for the pair, at under 1-ohm !
At that well reduced rate of resistance build-up,, the equivalent amount of resistance in a #21-gauge winding, would merely allow for only HALF that existing total winding-length ! _ So that parallel/double-winding idea could certainly provide a very significant reduction in winding-resistance that could well eliminate the coil-winding from ever becoming the bottle-neck of the circuit ! _ And-also, no-doubt TRUMP any advantage afforded by a std.winding of silver-wire, as well !
__ However Bruce shouldn't need the 'prime-pair' to have such a low resistance, (although it shouldn't hurt either).
Where this 'double-winding' idea would better pay-off, (rather than with the prime-winding), is for the two aux.pairs ! _ Cuz in that way,, a thicker-gauge wouldn't be required (for their intended-function) then, in order to keep aux.winding-resistance minimized, (since a 'double-winding' would do an even BETTER job yet) !



" it seems in one of those
past schemes I must have wired the stock coils to have similar effect but can't recall. "

____ I only recall of you unchaining each power-coil's dual-windings (from their two individual stock stator-circuits), and then reconnecting them rather to each-other in series-fashion, (but never together in parallel).
____ I think a nice-project for you Bill, would be to reconnect-up all those stock dual-windings (of each power-coil), into ordinary parallel-fashion, and then perform a max.power re-test on the resulted stator. _ Cuz that rearrangement-mod would then significantly improve power-transfer capability, for thusly allowing the intended-load to then be able to grasp a GREATER share of the 'produced-power' (created by your 2 or 3 sectioned 6-pole alt.stator) !
__ The reason for why that would be a reasonable test to conduct,, is because that rather simple wire reconnection modification should allow those with stock-stators (which have been externally-reconnected in the 'series-fashion'), to obtain the advantage of 4-times reduced stator-winding resistance, (without having-to rewind the power-coils [in the double-winding fashion that you've conceived] ) !
__ However, I believe that, (unlike with your 'double-winding' coil-winding arrangement),, the parallel-reconnection arrangement, would quite-likely lead-to a lot of 'mismatched' 'E-scheming' (since the inner-most windings are naturally shorter than the outer-most windings, [which thusly ought-to lead to a WARM stator even without any connected load] ).
And for that reason, such testing would be fairly revealing.


Enlightened-Cheers,
-Bob