250 Monza regulator rectifier

[basketcase]

After doing the DewCatTea-Bob stator modification to increase output ( the thread is here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1358), the next step is to decide on a regulator rectifier (RR). My original RR is missing and to tell you the truth, I'm not going for a full restoration and would like some newer electronics. I have no experience at this and am following Bob's instructions. He suggested starting a new thread, and i suppose this is to not muddy up the stator thread and make searching for info a little easier.
Cliff notes:
1966 Monza 250
I am converting to 12 volts
going to run a battery
going to run a Headlight (High/low beam), brake light, parking light, horn

The lighting is going to be added in the future, so I want to plan for it now. My free time is very limited and grass cutting season will be here before you know it. So my immediate hopeful plan is to get it running and do the lighting over next winter.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

After doing the DewCatTea-Bob stator modification to increase output ( the thread is here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1358), the next step is to decide on a regulator rectifier (RR). My original RR is missing and to tell you the truth, I'm not going for a full restoration and would like some newer electronics. I have no experience at this and am following Bob's instructions. He suggested starting a new thread, and i suppose this is to not muddy up the stator thread and make searching for info a little easier.
Cliff notes:
1966 Monza 250
I am converting to 12 volts
going to run a battery
going to run a Headlight (High/low beam), brake light, parking light, horn

The lighting is going to be added in the future, so I want to plan for it now. My free time is very limited and grass cutting season will be here before you know it. So my immediate hopeful plan is to get it running and do the lighting over next winter.

____ If we 'match' your chosen load-system, then any further voltage-regulation beyond that which a fair-sized battery will preform, won't be required !
A power-regulator is only required when the power-juice generating-source provides more power than the load-system is consuming & the battery can comfortably handle. _ So if your chosen load-system consumes enough of the power that your charging-system provides, then the battery (if not too small) can handle the voltage-regulation job (just as Ducati allowed with there Monza-system).
__ So since your modified alt.stator-connections now allow you to pick from a variety of charging-systems, it should be fairly easy to match-up to your chosen load-system.
____ I'd suggest shopping for a HarleyDavison type headlight, as they can be found in a suitable size, and there should be a wide-range of varying light-bulbs available to fit within.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

So since your modified alt.stator-connections now allow you to pick from a variety of charging-systems, it should be fairly easy to match-up to your chosen load-system.
____ I'd suggest shopping for a HarleyDavison type headlight, as they can be found in a suitable size, and there should be a wide-range of varying light-bulbs available to fit within

I dont have any lighting at this point. So I couldnt tell you what the load is going to be.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ It's surprising that I didn't notice your new-post here sooner ! _ I don't-know how I could've overlooked it before I turned-in for the night. _ Perhaps when I refreshed the main-page, it hadn't actually 'refreshed' .
__ Anyhow, I hope you've noticed that I had updated my last-post in your alt.timing-thread (where we left-off).



" I dont have any lighting at this point. So I couldnt tell you what the load is going to be. "

____ Alright then,, I'm fairly certain of what most OTHERS would advise you to do, even before you revealed your present-circumstance, or even if you DID know what your load-system is going to be. _ And their advice, (somewhat contrary to my own), would be to simply go-for whatever setup will provide as much maximum-power as is possibly possible, and let a top-quality type v.regulator-unit handle the difference between all the available-power & whatever your load-system turns-out to be.
And if that's what you'd just as soon do, then we can go that route.
__ Because of the alt.wire-leads to alt.stator modification you've made, it's now possible to consider your alternator being virtually as '2 in 1', as it has two isolated & separate power-generating circuits to take advantage of. _ So they COULD either be both combined-together, or accessed separately to power separate load-circuits.
Your possible options are pretty-much limited only to one's ability of conception... I don't think I could possibly list ALL the feasible optional system-setups which you could possibly choose to take advantage of (here & now), (and that's why it would be preferred to know ahead-of-time what your headlight choice will be).
__ Since (I gather) you've chosen to reset your alt.rotor-timing for the 'compromise-setting', it would then make sense to use just one (of your two) alt.circuits to power the ign.system separately from the battery & lights power-circuit... That way, your Duke would never need to be dependent upon whatever the battery's happen-chance condition-state may be. _ Otherwise, as with a normal battery-powered ign.system,
the ignition has to share alt.charging-power with the battery (which is ALSO a 'load' of varying sorts !).
So if your chosen headlight doesn't demand too awfully-much power, I believe it would be best to keep the ign.system SEPARATELY powered from all-of the REST of your Duke's load-system, (since YOU now have such an option !).
If you actually get some enjoyment from doing your own custom wiring (as I do !), then you ought to prefer going this more complex route of separate-circuits.
__ So far, I've mentioned-of two different major-paths you could chose to take - (the shotgun-approach as most-others would choose, or more precisely targeted type circuiting), please let me know which way you prefer to trek-through towards your end-goal.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

simply go-for whatever setup will provide as much maximum-power as is possibly possible, and let a top-quality type v.regulator-unit handle the difference between all the available-power & whatever your load-system turns-out to be. And if that's what you'd just as soon do, then we can go that route.

I like simplicity, so at this point thats the route I would like to take. Later on down the road when I add lights I can possibly change to the complex system.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I like simplicity, so at this point thats the route I would like to take. "

____ Then you'll need a good-quality regulator-unit, which I'm not in an experienced-position to guide you towards. _ And whatever reg.unit YOU choose, I may or may-not be able to tell you how it's meant to be connected-up.


" when I add lights I can possibly change to the complex system. "

____ My above reply was with the assumed-conclusion that you had quoted my post-wording to be thought-of in conjunction with your above-reply. _ But NOW that it seems you only indicate that you merely wish just a very basic charging-system until you add a completed load-system, this now thus means that you can (temporarily) get-by with the most-BASIC of systems possible ! _ As there's NO-sense in constructing a charging-system which makes ALL the capable alt.power available just to merely power a minimal load-system !
So until you add at least a headlight, it only makes sense to construct a charging-system which will merely provide the LEAST-minimal amount of alt.power, (as that minimal-amount is already going to be a bit too-much !).
__ The WEAKEST possible charging-system will only make use of merely-just one/half of one/half of your alternator's 24 available alt.power-pulses (per Otto-cycle), and even that reduced amount is going to be over twice the amount of alt.power that a load-system without a headlight will need !
And since you "like simplicity", you'll then appreciate that your simplified charging-system only requires just one half-wave rectifier-diode ! _ The output of which will be 6 alt.power-pulses per ign.spark,, and the ign.system only consumes about 2 of them, thus leaving 4 power-pulses for charging a battery and running all other system-loads except a headlight !
But rather than attempting to create a way to mount & hook-up a simple single-diode, it will be easier to simply install a full-wave rectifier-block and only make-use of just one of it's four internal diodes, (leaving the extra 3 for a future use).
And with this rather weak charging-output setup, no regulator-unit needs to be employed, (especially if a tail-light is left turned-on), as the battery-itself will easily regulate the system-voltage, (with such non-overwhelming charging-power) !

____ Let me know what you're now thinking.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[basketcase]

____ Then you'll need a good-quality regulator-unit, which I'm not in an experienced-position to guide you towards. _ And whatever reg.unit YOU choose, I may or may-not be able to tell you how it's meant to be connected-up.

I assumed you knew all about these. Cause I have no idea what to get.

But NOW that it seems you only indicate that you merely wish just a very basic charging-system until you add a completed load-system, this now thus means that you can (temporarily) get-by with the most-BASIC of systems possible !

Yes, I just want the bike to run and charge a battery. I will add all the lighting at a later time.

it will be easier to simply install a full-wave rectifier-block and only make-use of just one of it's four internal diodes, (leaving the extra 3 for a future use).

This sounds like a plan.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I assumed you knew all about these. Cause I have no idea what to get. "

____ I-myself never created such extremely mismatched charging & load systems for Duke electrical-systems ! _ So I have no personal experience of my-own to offer concerning heavy-duty type power-regulators.
__ In the event that I had expected any worthy-mismatch between the power & load systems, (usually only on a customer's Duke),, I'd then usually install either a Z.diode from a Brit.bike, or a regulator-unit from a late-60s Honda,, or-else a 'MityMax' or 'Tympanium' aftermarket-unit. _ While I've learned that the Tympanium-units are STILL available these-days, I suspect that the old MityMax-unit is now made under the name 'Sparx'.
__ But since the '90s, much-improved/superior regulators have become available (which I have no experience with), and such modern-units ought to be worthwhile-upgrades to consider.
Perhaps fellow-member Bill C. will chime-in with a recommendation that he knows will work to handle the FULL-power of your alternator (even when the system-load is at a minimum).
____ Here follows some links (in order of worst-to-best), to various suitable options for you to consider. ...
__ This first-one is questionable as to whether it's actually a real "regulator"...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Car-Golf-C ... 1428053%26
__ This-one appears to be a standard Tympanium-unit (which I know works well enough for all stock w-c.models & modified n-c.models)...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tympanium-Elect ... 65&vxp=mtr
__ This last unit seems to be about the same as the old/popular MityMax-unit...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-NORTON- ... 0d&vxp=mtr
__ Be sure to discuss your thoughts here, before actually making any purchase of such items.



" Yes, I just want the bike to run and charge a battery. I will add all the lighting at a later time. "

____ Then if you have no load-system (other than the ign.coil), a battery ought not be needed either. _ Just a suitably-sized capacitor will do to help with a good/improved ign.spark.
__ Then-later when you finally add your entire load-system, you can then connect-up your alternator's FULL-potential power-output, and a battery if you still wish.


" This sounds like a plan. "

____ I AGREE !
And a very SIMPLE-one to start-out with.
__ Here's a link to a recently posted-picture of another-fella's charging-system project where I had him wire-up a couple of rect.blocks (for obtaining FULL-power from a 6-pole alternator). viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1388&sid=f14e0839ddc7be2e54d3cef6ef232511#p9767
You ought to be able to do about the same ! - Right ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[Jordan]

My friend Tony had a Monza for many years, after he wisely bought it when he was 14 years old.
When he had regulator problems, he said he just bypassed it, keeping only the rectifier in circuit. This is how the bike ran daily for many years.
I guess he wore out batteries quicker, but they seemed to hold up OK. It seemed like a good low buck solution.
Some bikes with alternators had no regulators as standard, utilising a multi-pole light switch to roughly balance the supply and load.

Jordan

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote="Jordan"]
" When he had regulator problems, he said he just bypassed it, keeping only the rectifier in circuit. "

____ The stock black-box states "6 volt" on it, but actually, it's NOT a VOLTage-regulator,, but rather, it regulates alt.charging-power (from overcharging the battery), by curtailing excess current-flow.
The only thing within it that has anything to do with '6-volts' is a wire-wound resistor, and the whole-thing depends on a 6-volt battery to actually keep the system-voltage at about that of the installed battery (which is supposed to be a 6-volt model of a minimum size).


" It seemed like a good low buck solution.
Some bikes with alternators had no regulators as standard, utilising a multi-pole light switch to roughly balance the supply and load. "

____ I've actually been expecting to bring-up this very same matter (even before Randy started this related thread) ! _ And I guess this may as well be the time to get it covered...
__ While Ducati's very unique n-c.charging-system is indeed a good-working & oddly complex conception, it would've been cheaper to merely use just it's pair of diodes and such a dual-type light-switch instead !
That way, the available output of the 2nd.diode-circuit would only be allowed to supply it's 2nd.circuit alt.power when the light-switch is turned-on ! - (A very-COMMON practice with many Jap.bikes !)
__ I've also been waiting for a good-time to bring-up Ducati's quite uniquely arranged alt.stator-winding setup. ...
Many who have but a BASIC-understanding of electrical-concepts, conclude that the 6-ploe stator-windings have to be that of a simple 'center-tapped' arrangement,, BUT ACTUALLY, it's two separate stator-windings are wound in such a non-typical special-way so as to induce current into each-other, thus producing load-circuit inspired power BEYOND that which the two separate stator-windings themselves alone could normally produce ! - (Pretty-much like pulling-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat to those who don't comprehend the simple mutual-induction process.)
Roughly-put,, this added power-production effect means that when only one of the stator-circuits is allowed to flow current, the alt.power-output is then only about 1/3rd of what the entire charging-system can possibly be capable of. _ But when both stator-circuits are allowed to flow current, THEN not only is the alternator itself able to supply 100% of it's OWN rotor-magnet produced power,, but ALSO, the mutual-induction effect (from within the twin stator-windings) ADDS additional current-flow which creates even MORE power that's dependent (& directly-proportional) upon the connected load-circuit's own power-demand ! _ How wonderfully cool is that ? - The more power that the load-system consumes, the more power the mutual-induction effect will thus-then create !
__ So the 'dual-type light-switch' -(with built-in 2nd alt.circuit-switch), is a very-good way to get-by without NEED for a v.regulator-unit ! _ Cuz with that kind of setup, low charging-power will be all that's available with such a double light-switch turned-off, and more than DOUBLE the charging-power will become available when the switch is turned-on ! _ Which is pretty-much exactly what's needed, since the headlight alone consumes about 65 to 95% of the system-power.


Enlightened-Cheers,
-Bob