My altanator/ stator/ generator...what do I have here?

[basketcase]

Also hoping that my added delay with clearing-up related-things, doesn't put-off 'basketcase' too much !

Bob, you sure are thorough, and I do appreciate that, But I am needing to move on to a regulator rectifier choice soon. Jimmy will have the motor done this week hopefully, and I need to get my parts ordered. I hope you understand.
Thanks
Randy

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I am needing to move on to a regulator rectifier choice soon. I hope you understand. "

____ I'm sorry Randy, I HAD felt the need to clear-up a basic-mistake which I had posted. _ I now realize that apparently nobody had noticed or even cared, and-so I guess I merely should've just quietly corrected my first two graphs & related text, and left things be.
BUT, I really couldn't have simply gotten-by with doing just that because, in light of what I had come to realize, the realized-outcome means that further consideration ought to be applied to your choice of timing/mounting your alt.rotor to the crankshaft.
__ I have very-recently added a couple new pic.graphs (seen in black) within my past-post (on the prior-page), which should help explain exactly what my previous "mistake" was with my older graphs.
And I next intend to add another graph (along with further explanation) within my previous-post, as well.
__ So after you've looked-over my two previous-posts with their updated-info, then please ask any new questions which my updated-info has possibly inspired, and/or confirm whether-or-not you now understand my previous "mistake" and how the corrected data has come to change the OPTIMUM compromise for timing the alt.rotor with the overall ign.timing-range.

I'll leave all these posts of mine ,
left un-updated for a few more hours,

____ I'm very sorry that I've gone well past that amount of time !
At the time, I didn't fully realize it yet, but soon-thereafter I became quite ill ! _ So I really didn't feel like getting out of bed to get back to where I had left-off here (by the time when I HAD expected to), until this-afternoon.
So sorry for the ADDED added-delay, (as it certainly was not intended) !

____ Hopefully SOON-after you've confirmed you're up-to-speed with the latest-news on the alt.rotor-timing matter, my condition will then feel improved enough to begin leading you on charging-system details.
But for now, know that you will require at-least one full-wave rectifier-block (rated [at-least] 10amps & 100piv), which come with 1/4" spade-terminals, and usually cost about 3-bucks.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

So NOW instead of advancing the alt.rotor just 18-degrees, as previously figured,, I now PROPERLY figure that it should be advanced a total of about 27-degrees. - Meaning that the original/factory-mark was retarded about 27-degrees (rather than merely 18, as PREVIOUSLY assumed).

Got it, 27 degrees.

I became quite ill ! _ So I really didn't feel like getting out of bed to get back to where I had left-off here (by the time when I HAD expected to), until this-afternoon. So sorry for the ADDED added-delay, (as it certainly was not intended) !

I knew there was something wrong. Hopefully you will be back to full speed soon.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Got it, 27 degrees. "

____ That meaning that the factory-mark on your alt.rotor should be advanced ahead of the crankshaft's TDC.point by about 27-degrees (instead of 0-degrees, as by the-book).
__ I assume that you've come to understand what my previous error was, and how it's correction has led to the reconsideration of exactly how your alt.rotor ought-to be timed to the engine ? ...
With the PREVIOUSLY intended alt.rotor-location, the alt.timing would've been near-perfect for the static-ign.timing,, BUT, as the auto-advance moved the ign.timing towards max.advance, the ign.power would've then become pretty-much totally reliant on just battery-power (at revs nearer-to & above 3000-RPM, [when the ign.system most needs strong-power for best saturation of the ign.coil]).
However with the alt.rotor located/timed as now most recently recommended, the engine should be able to run at all RPMs even when the battery is off-line, (even-though the ign.spark will likely not be as strong).
____ This alt.timing-issue may not seem very important when the ign.system is powered by battery,, however I (as well as many others), have been thankful for having a motor that would still be capable of running even when the battery has (for any number of reasons) become as-if nonexistent !
__ I've ridden-on a few battery-powered Duke-models which had their alt.rotors MIStimed while also the battery was either dead or disconnected,, and depending on the happen-chance set-timing of the alt.rotor, a Duke would then either have to be push-started (since it couldn't be kicked-over fast enough to create a worthy ign.spark), or, a Duke could possibly be kick-started (with a sufficiently-generated ign.spark), but then the ignition would cut-off/on & badly misfire at higher RPMs (due to insufficiently-generated ign.spark !).
Neither which of those two extreme-conditions, does a Duke-rider wish to ever find himself stuck with (until whatever his particular battery-issue is solved).
__ But in addition to the above mentioned concern, there's still more benefit for a well timed alt.rotor...
Because batteries exhibit several various states-of-condition which they may possibly be caught-in, it's thus possible for the charging-system to be somewhat more efficient depending on if the alt.power is properly 'timed' with the power-demand made by the ign.system's fairly constantly-timed on & off load-action...
For instance, when a battery has reached it's fully-charged state, a power-pulse from the alternator will then be mostly rejected whilst it's top-peak will simply pass-through without saving any charge from the pulse that can be stored within the battery,, thus, (assuming that the ign.system is the only load), the power-pulse is THEN completely wasted ! _ And when the alt.rotor is not well timed with the ign.timing, then that power-waste will occur with EVERY alt.power-pulse, which thus-then leaves the battery's own power-reserve alone to power the ignition. _ However when the alt.power is best timed to supply a power-pulse during the time when the ignition happens to be demanding required-power, THEN that pulse of power isn't wasted by the battery and instead can then be consumed to power the ignition, thus saving the battery's stored-charge from having to supply that power-demand. _ And that's one way of how proper alt.timing can possibly make the charging-system more efficient,, as in such case, the power-demand by the ign.system can then be virtually free (as it then has no need to draw-away & consume charge stored within the battery).
Such proper alt.timing is also a concern when the battery is in other states of charge. _ Another for-instance for when the alternator is-not properly timed... Quite unlike a condenser-cap, when a battery is very low on charge (and in good condition to accept charge), it will then absorb the alt.power-pulses (merely to help build-up charge), but yet will-not give-back (for the ignition) that same-amount of power-juice which the battery had just taken-in & absorbed, thus leaving the ign.system pretty-much solely at the mercy of the battery's low state of charge ! - (Understand that batteries really don't SAVE-up & store electrons like a condenser-cap does, [so-thus relatively much more alt.power-juice is NEVER regained-back from a battery !]!)
Whereas if the alt.timing is instead properly-set so that it happens to supply a power-pulse when the ignition requires it, then the ignition will be able to swipe-away & consume that pulse of power before the battery can absorb it all just for it's very-OWN use. _ Thus the (rather important) ignition can then enjoy a fair-bit higher supply of power for itself, at that time !



" I knew there was something wrong. "

____ Right,, as there'd certainly have to be, in order to keep me away from my most-favorite Duke-subject for much longer than 10-hours ! _ Unfortunately, this-time it wasn't due-to the loss of internet-service, (but rather bad-chicken, I think).


" Hopefully you will be back to full speed soon. "

____ Still not back all the way yet, but still improving.
Thanks.

____ Hopefully soon, I'll later post to your other/newer related-thread.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

However with the alt.rotor located as now recommended, the engine should be able to run at all RPMs even when the battery is off-line, (even though the ign.spark may not be as strong).

Wow, a added bonus. Almost like a magneto.

in order to keep me away from my most-favorite Duke-subject for much longer than 10-hours !

Thats fer sure, you are VERY knowledgeable on the subject.

unfortunately, this-time it wasn't due-to the loss of internet-service, (but rather bad-chicken, I think).

If you ask me, you cant over cook chicken. I like it well done and crispy. Everything should be dead by then.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Wow, a added bonus. Almost like a magneto. "

____ Since you were as concerned as you were about properly-setting the alt.rotor, I had thus assumed that you were already aware of that particular aspect of proper alt.rotor-timing.
This non-battery method of ignition is not a very-good one because, relying on a single alt.power-pulse, (especially such a short-duration one from a 6-pole alt), to properly 'saturate' the ign.coil before the points open, is too touchy to be considered as a dependable solution, (but it does work well enough for when in a pinch).
__ Anyhow, because of the rather short duration of a 6-pole type power-pulse, you must decide which is most important to YOU (when the battery is out of commission),, ether to have fairly good ign.spark during kick-starting, or, stronger ign.spark when running at higher revs...
If you prefer easier spark-production during kick-starting, then you should try to time your alt.rotor (advanced) between 21 & 25-degrees,, but at the other extreme (of compromise), if you prefer stronger spark-production above 2500-RPM, then you ought to try setting your alt.rotor's timing more-advanced, say between 36 & 42-degrees.
__ The "27-degree" suggestion was merely a fairly-rough compromise starting-point to go-by, so if you can't decide on where to set YOUR-own chosen compromised-setting, then I'd recommend a compromise-setting of 36-degrees of advancement. _ In-fact, I believe any amount of advancement less than 25-degrees, would be a bad 'compromise'.
____ I've finally done some calculations (which I should've gotten done back on day-1 !), and I hope that I've never used any wording that would indicate that Ducati had actually stamped their timing-mark in the 'wrong' location on your alt-rotor...
As I've now figured-out that there's indeed some possible rime & reason for their chosen location-point for the timing-mark placement on your alt.rotor. ...
It seems that Ducati did-not take any COMPROMISE in to consideration at all ! _ Rather they had elected to time the alt.power-pulse solely for the benefit of just the max.advance-ign.point, with NO consideration at all for the benefit of the 'STATIC-timing' !
So if you prefer to agree with that NO-compromise outlook, then the factory timing-mark ought to be set 'by-the-book'.
__ In light of this new revelation, please let me know what you're now thinking you prefer.



" you are VERY knowledgeable on the subject. "

____ But unfortunately there's been no-one else here to help clear-the-way through this somewhat foggy conception-work. _ And I-myself have been pretty-much dragging my feet though it, (so this thread has been well less than straight-forward ahead !).



" you cant over cook chicken. "

____ I don't cook myself, it was delivered from a near-by Mex.rest. _ I'll not eat warmed-up next-day left-overs from there ever again !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

In light of this new revelation, please let me know what you're now thinking you prefer.

I'm going to go with the 27 deg suggestion. It sounds like a good spot to get you started if you are having trouble, and still get you down the road too.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I'm going to go with the 27 deg suggestion. It sounds like a good spot to get you started if you are having trouble, and still get you down the road too. "

____ I agree that the-compromise is a smart way to go,, however I've been doing some deeper-thinking about this matter, and I now advise against just merely the '27-degrees', and suggest 30 to 33-degrees instead, (in order to fully obtain the desired best compromise-effect which had been roughly expected from the [rather convenient 9degree-stepped] 27-degree advanced-point).
(I'll add a related pic.graph later.)
__ And besides, you still have yet to choose from MANY different charging-systems, some of which can allow for an ignition-system which is totally independent of any battery-requirement - (you'd just need to add a suitably-sized capacitor in such case).


Dukaddy-Dukes,
-Bob

UPDATE - I've now added a well-detailed pic.graph !
Please don't get confused because I've used the same graph for displaying both sets of specs, I just did it this way for easy direct-comparison.
Also, understand that where the blue-waveform crosses the horz.gray-line, there's then ZER0-power from the alternator !
__ First, to point-out the particulars of the Ducati-chosen 6-pole mag.rotor-timing...
Ducati has obviously particularly set the alt.timing so that peak-power is produced 45-degrees before the max.advance ign.point occurs (at 36-degrees BTDC). _ That means that the alt.power-pulse is allowed to progress for 135-degrees, thus-then the ign.coil will have become as saturated as is possible for 3000-RPM & above,, and that's a very-good thing ! _ (Although in my-own opinion, 45-degrees after Peak-DeadCenter is a little-bit late.)
HOWEVER, what's not very-good at all, is how Ducati's chosen alt.timing leaves the static-ign.timing rather out-in-the-cold ! _ Cuz the static-timing -(8-BTDC) occurs after ONLY 39-degrees of waveform-production into the neighboring power-pulse, and that's really not long enough to properly saturate the ign.coil (especially at those lower-revs when alt.power-output is minimal) !
And besides that worthy-concern,, due to the fact the auto-advance ranges-over more than just one-single power-pulse, this thus means that as the AAU advances the ign.timing from the static-point up-towards max.advance, the ign.spark-production will thus-then pass-through the stages of weaker/OFF*/weak before finally reaching FULL-strength (by 3000-RPM, at max.advance) !
(* "OFF" - I actually recall riding a Sebring with a broken battery-wire, and there indeed was a low-speed point [a bit above idle-speed] where the ignition would keep cutting-out.)
__ Next, now to point-out the corresponding-particulars of the (included*) suggested 'compromise-setting' for the alt.timing, (* which would be the result of advancing the factory-mark 30-degrees ahead-of the TDC.point)...
The presented graphed-specs for this near-BEST compromised-alt.timing have the max.advance occurring after only 45-degrees of alt.power-waveform production,, however that's by when the engine has spun up-to 3000-RPM & above, where the alternator is then producing about 3-times as much power as at kick-starting speeds, so that rather low range-point still ought to be good enough for sufficient ign.spark.
What's also fairly-good with this compromise-setting, is that the static-ign.timing is set to occur at a point -(39-degrees after Peak-DeadCenter) that's still before the built-up ign.coil-saturation can drop-off downward too much, before the ign.points (MORE abruptly!)- perform that intended action.
____ I hope all this helps clear-up & explain what's all what with this alt.timing issue.

Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[basketcase]

And besides, you still have yet to choose from MANY different charging-systems, some of which can allow for an ignition-system which is totally independent of any battery-requirement - (you'd just need to add a suitable-sized capacitor).

I wouldn't know where to start when it came to picking a regulator rectifier. I thought I did but, immediately got shot down. Maybe we should continue this in the regulator rectifier thread?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Maybe we should continue this in the regulator rectifier thread? "

____ Most definitely ! _ I've been waiting for you to post a response to my last-post within that thread.

____ But first, I hope you notice that I've updated my previous-post above with a master-graph & associated text ! _ As it should all well explain the pros & cons of the factory-set alt.timing vs. a good compromise-resetting option for your alt.rotor installation-setting.
__ It may seem rather complex to comprehend it all but, I could tell from your previous response-posts, that you have grasped everything well enough so-far, so that you should now have very-little (if any) trouble coming to understand what's-what, about as well as myself.


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob