Kick-start slip on narrow case

[JimF]

I tried to find some old posts regarding this problem but couldn't quite locate them.

My nondescript 250 had no issues with the kick-start slipping unlike my Mach 1 which continues to have the problem.

The nondescript 250 was a 1-kick bike until I set the timing recently another 10 degrees more advanced.

Now it takes several kicks to get the bike going, and the problem of the kick start not engaging or slipping has recently materialized.

Briefly, what is the repair procedure and is this an engine out and tear down?

Thanks,

Jim

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I tried to find some old posts regarding this problem but couldn't quite locate them. "

____ The search-engine here does make it a good bit difficult to find EXACTLY (& only) that which ya want to find, (even when ya already know it's something that actually exists somewhere in our forum).


" My nondescript 250 had no issues with the kick-start slipping unlike my Mach 1 which continues to have the problem. "

____ Your 250-Duke (which I think you ought to refer-to as a '64 'Mark-III'), has the slipping kick-starter issue in common with all other pre-1966 Scrambler & other non-battery-powered 250-models, as well. _ However your Mach-I (with it's battery-powered ign.system & 28-degree AAU), should not have so easily developed the same issue...


" The nondescript 250 was a 1-kick bike until I set the timing recently another 10 degrees more advanced. "

____ I'd bet it would still start-up just as reliably if you were equally used-to the proper/best-way for starting this engine-type (with magneto-type ignition & fixed-advance).
It's just a mater of letting yourself develop the mind-set of taking the added time to 'set-up' each kick-over attempt, (instead of trying to kick-over the engine from whatever random point that the crankshaft has happened to come to rest at each time).


" Now it takes several kicks to get the bike going, and the problem of the kick start not engaging or slipping has recently materialized. "

____ Then that means that you most-likely must've done some random-type kicking, and by natural-odds thus-then ran-into/caused some significantly hard kick-back episodes. _ Cuz (in a good running motor), the starter-gear's leaf-springs can only become (varyingly) dis-functional due to a (accumulative) number of kick-backs (or even just one very HARD kick-back) ! ...
__ What happens is that during a 'kick-back', the k-s.engagement-teeth on 1st.gear force the engaged starter-gear to be thrown-back towards it's normally disengaged position, (where the kick-lever return-spring normally resets it back to), however the kick-back includes many times the energy-force of the return-spring, so when the lift-ramp on the starter-gear runs-up the (teeth-disengaging) lift-ramp of the wedge-plate (that's attached to the motor-case), the starter-gear is then LAUNCHED-out (rather than simply lifted-away, as by the return-spring),, and thus thrown-outward up-against the leaf-springs with such EXTRA-force, that the leaf-springs then get BENT (with a varied [depending on kick-back severity] reverse-bend), and thus-then those bent-springs can no-longer press-against the starter-gear with sufficient force required to get the starter-gear FULLY-engaged (with the related engagement-teeth of 1st.gear), thus leading to possible kick-lever slippage !
__ In another recent & related thread (concerning the lack of an AAU in your particular Duke-motor), I extensively elaborated on how best to go-about kick-starting these type of engines (with fixed-advance & non-battery-powered ignition), with hopes of not only helping to prevent somebody from injuring their foot/leg, but also in-hopes of preventing this common-issue of the leaf-springs getting bent out of shape !
I guess now that you have discovered on your-own what more of the consequences can be (of random-kicking), you probably now wish you had taken the added time to kick-over your Duke-motor, (note I didn't say: your "bike"), by the slower & SURE method (which I had suggested in that other/previous thread).



" Briefly, what is the repair procedure and is this an engine out and tear down? "

____ I may get-back to this post with further elaborated-wording later,, but for now, try searching "leaf-spring" .
When you find the related threads/posts on this common-issue (which has been well-covered at least once before, starting in late 2009 here), you'll then be reminded that it's a fairly simple repair-job, (which doesn't require case-splitting like a wide-case might [in order to get-at ALL the k-s.parts] ).
____ Also (with bent leaf-springs), if you want those kick-starter foot-levers to get a better grip-engagement while kick-starting, then lean your Duke to the right (as far as you comfortably can), and lightly jiggle-down -(as in, being 'sure-footed', as they say), on the kick-lever using your left-foot as you 'feel' for a good/best-bite* (while you're also getting the foot-lever reset back up-to your-own personally-chosen max.leverage-position),, then as you KEEP that best-feeling bite still well-engaged (with your foot-pressure then maintained [and no-longer jiggled/released] ), stand your Duke back-up into normal kick-starting position (but without leaning any to the left at-all), and proceed-onward & follow-through with giving it your best attempt-effort at kicking it over, (as your [now prepared] kick-lever should then NOT slip !).
__ (* NOTEs... By: "best-bite", what I actually mean is [if ya have 'The Knack'], ya can get the feel/sense of whether all the engagement-gears' teeth have become fully-engaged, or, perhaps merely-just have their tip-ends barely in contact with one-another [which doesn't "feel" as sure & solid]. _ That's what the process of lightly jiggling-down [on the kick-lever] is intended to get accomplished - FULL teeth-engagement. _ And, by "jiggling-down", I actually mean slightly altering your foot-pressure applied against the kick-lever [which helps the starter-gear to get slid-down & over into full-engagement with the starter-teeth on 1st.gear], because each slight downward 'jiggle' of the starter-lever then slightly turns the starter-gear just a bit, which in-turn then allows gravity to pull the starter-gear down & over, [sliding-down on it's place on the layshaft] and eventually into meshing with the engagement-teeth [on the side of 1st.gear]. _ However if ya have your Duke leaned-over far enough, then gravity will pull the starter-gear down-over all the way, without need for any 'jiggling' to help-out.)
____ NOTE... Most-all of the directly-above wording is to fully-explain why leaning a pre-1966 Duke over to the right, solves the slipping kick-lever issue (after the starter-gear's leaf-springs have become bent due to a kick-back episode and thus can no-longer preform their intended task as well as originally intended).


Enlightened-Cheers,
-Bob

[JimF]

Thanks Bob!

I searched using your suggestion and found the information I was looking for.

[DanM]

Thanks Bob!

I searched using your suggestion and found the information I was looking for.

Jim,

Could you post the link?

Thanks,

Dan

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I searched using your suggestion and found the information I was looking for. "

____ I'm left wondering about that... Since the search-engine unfortunately ignores hyphens, which ought to link two words together (so that the search would then be conveniently limited),, my suggested word-search instead turns-up every post with EITHER 'leaf' or 'spring' mentioned within, (instead of just those with "leaf-spring" only) !
So it would be quite nice to know WHICH post, (of all those found by the overly-wide search-results), that you specifically found to be of particular interest concerning your presented-issue here.
That way I'll then know what additional-info might supplement it without undue duplication of info-wording (in this particular topic, again).
I doubt that I'm the ONLY-one who would like to have a link posted (here within this thread), that would take us to whatever post you found which addresses your issue of concern.
____ Have you tried leaning-over either of your DUKEs (to prevent kick-lever slippage), yet ?
If so, did my suggested-method work-out sensibly-well for you alright-enough ?


Hopeful-cheers,
-Bob

UPDATE - I now see that another of us -(DanM) has already bothered to post a request for a link to that which you've "found". _ So can you do that Jim ?

[JimF]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3&p=18&hilit=leaf+spring#p18

Eighth post down seems to tell me what I wanted to know.


Jim

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Eighth post down seems to tell me what I wanted to know. "

____ That's only one of the oldest posts on the issue-topic ! _ There are others that got-into the same subject considerably more extensively.
__ While I believe there are still others, I've found three more of which links to them are listed below.....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=737&p=5455&#p5455

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=235&p=1719&h#p1719

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26&#p72


____ In case you haven't yet noticed, I just-now got done with adding to my first-post on this thread-page, (as I had before mentioned I would get back to doing).


Tillater,
-Bob

[JimF]

To get to the leaf spring, is it just the clutch basket that has to be removed?

Any special tools required?

Does anyone have a leaf spring to sell me? I want to have several options when I go in;

a) bend the original,
b) use a new spring,
c) use two springs, or
d) use the repair that involves that utilizes a new drilled hole. That's the ideal fix and I am trying to secure one of these items.

I have a trip in two weeks though and I would like to address this before the trip.

Thanks.

Jim

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" To get to the leaf spring, is it just the clutch basket that has to be removed? "

____ With the right tools, only the oval inspection-cover has to be removed. - (JUST-KIDDING, you already seem to undertand what-all needs to be done in order to get-at the starter-gear spring.)

____ Besides myself, I think others also ought to be interested to learn if you have learned/taught-yourself how to kick-over your engine by leaning your Duke over to the right, (as I had elaborately instructed).
If so, do you simply lean it way over until the starter-gear self-engages (by pure gravity-force alone),, or have you learned to lean it over just slightly to the right, and "jiggle" (or should I rather say: 'tickle') the kick-lever, to get your starter-gear engaged ?
Which-ever, haven't you found the suggested leaning-method to be sufficient to get-by with ?


" Any special tools required? "

____ Not really.


" Does anyone have a leaf spring to sell me? "
" bend the original, "

____ So long as a used-spring is not rusted, a re-bent back-into normal-shape leaf-spring will be pretty-much as good as a new one.


" use a new spring, "
" use two springs, "

____ While I've seen some (160-200) motors with just one leaf-spring, the 250 n-c.motors came-stock with a pair of them.
If you found all the past posts on the subject, then you should've noted that I've suggested using THREE of the leaf-springs, or-else make a suitable steel-plate to 'back-up' the leafs so that they can't be so easily bent (by the "launched" starter-gear).


" use the repair that involves that utilizes a new drilled hole. "

____ The older/(pre-1966) motor-cases don't include the upper boss-support which the upper-arm of the (1966-type coil-spring) bracket bolts-down to. _ So-therefore (if actually making any use of the upper-arm), some method has to be devised to prepare for the bolting-down of the upper-arm of the spring-bracket.
That work can be rather difficult to get completed properly well enough, and so-thus ought to be attempted only when plenty of down-time is available (so as to get the job done-RIGHT !).
And in this case, I'd suggest getting used to the 'lean-to-the-right' starting-method for now, until the current riding-season is over-with, and THEN attempt such an extensively-modded non-standard repair-job.
__ However if you've actually learned the proper/recommended (anti kick-back) method for kick-starting a Duke-engine with fixed-advance, (so that the new/replacement springs don't soon also get bent),, then it may be worth-while to now go-ahead & just do the standard leaf-spring replacement job.


" That's the ideal fix and I am trying to secure one of these items. "

____ You'll then actually need both the coil-spring and it's bolt-down securing-bracket.
__ You could possibly substitute most any coil-spring that's got fairly similar dimensions, and you could make your own spring-retainer metal-bracket (which could be fashioned to stay-put in place with just one [lower positioned] bolt-down arm).
Having a home-made coil-spring retainer/bracket which doesn't require having some concocted-means to secure-down an upper-arm, would make it more likely to get your modification-job accomplished without extra-excessive down-time.
For now (ASAP), you just need an example of, (or good measurements of), a stock leaf-spring, so you could then realize how to fashion a steel-plate for holding-down a (stock-like) coil-spring against the starter-gear.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[joe46ho]

Jim, Let me know what route you want to go on fixing this, I know I have spare k\s parts, I may actually have both types, I am pretty sure I have a spare coil spring and hold down plate to match...

Joe