Monza timing??

[Chuck]

I was confused because I thought the t-dots would line up, or come close to lining up, after 7 rotations. My son and I went out this morning and now after 24 or 25 rotations have all the t-dots lining up where they should be. I have been very careful not to let oil gear or timing gear slip out of the places they were when I started. I also noticed that there is no safety wiring on the oil pump screws. What do I do next?

Thanks for being so patient with me.

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I was confused because I thought the t-dots would line up, or come close to lining up, after 7 rotations. "

____ Well you did notice which of t.dots became aligned by the time you rotated the engine just the 7-times to TDC, which then left the rest yet to become aligned. _ So I guess you must've thought my "70" figure was a typo (and only had meant just '7' ) !?



" now after 24 or 25 rotations have all the t-dots lining up where they should be. "

____ Okay, that recent set of additional rotations plus your original "14" simply means that you had happened to have the engine set roughly half-way in-between TOTAL-complete t.dot-alignment occurrences, when you removed the eng.cover, (pretty-much just as luck would most likely have it !).
__ Now originally, it was expected that we OUGHT to find that your points-drive-gear would be found to be advanced one tooth, (thus-then well explaining why you couldn't retard your points-plate far enough to obtain the desired 8-degrees BTDC for your ign.timing, [rather than your 21-degrees BTDC, at full plate retardation] ). _ But now that you've reviewed that all of your timing-dot/marks all align-up (including the p.drive-gear), just as they are supposed to,, we now have to come-up with another reason for why you've ran-into your advanced ign.timing issue.



" I have been very careful not to let oil gear or timing gear slip out of the places they were when I started. "

____ That possibility could've been one which could explain the dilemma we're now facing, but besides, it is rather unlikely that such a slip-up would just-happen to fix/cancel-out your original issue, anyhow.
So-then it's fairly acceptable that all the t.dots were already set to properly align, even before you began to remove the eng.cover.
__ Do you think that there's any fair possibility that somebody once used any engine-parts from another Duke-model, to install withing your Monza ?



" What do I do next? "

____ Well if you're very sure that you had not screwed-up some way or another when you had set your degree-wheel to read zer0 when/where the piston was right-AT compression-TDC,
then it should work-out to purposely miss-align the t.dot on the points-drive-gear, so that it's retarded from the point where the timing-dot/mark on the pump-gear would have it. _ So to do that, pull-out the p.drive-gear & turn it counterclockwise one-tooth and then reinsert it back in place (so that it's t.dot is THEN misaligned, by 1-tooth behind -[however, LOOKING as-if forward-of] ).
That should provide extra slot-space to work with when you next try to set the points-plate for obtaining (further retarded) correct ign.timing for your Monza-engine.

[Chuck]

Hi Bob,

I think there is a very good chance that parts have been used from other bikes, it has the wrong headlight, and I have told it should have square sheet metal. I do know that the previous owners were very sloppy mechanics messing up all the screw heads. I had trouble with the selector box until I realize that the spring was incorrectly installed. The oil pump is missing its safety wire and the screw heads are all messed up. I hate to think of what made someone work on it. Is it possible that the bike has the wrong AAU, I've attached a picture. I will turn the p.drive one tooth counterclockwise as you suggest and see where the timing is. Do I have to prime the oil pump and if so how? With my British bikes it's alway reassuring to see the oil flow into the oil tank with the cap off after starting the engine.

Thanks,

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Is it possible that the bike has the wrong AAU, I've attached a picture. "

____ It appears to be the correct unit for your battery-powered ign.system.


" I will turn the p.drive one tooth counterclockwise as you suggest and see where the timing is. "

____ If that then fixes your ign.timing-issue, (as opposed to then making your ign.timing too-far retarded), then it could be that your points-drive-gear was originally intended for a 250-Scr.motor.



" Do I have to prime the oil pump and if so how? "

____ Probably not, but it wouldn't hurt to put some extra-thick oil into the crankshaft-hole in the eng.cover, and then rotate the pump-shaft backwards a couple turns to draw the oil back-inward (so as to help make sure the pump gets primed sooner than it otherwise would).


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[Chuck]

Is turning the oil pump backwards (CLOCKWISE) the correct direction?
Should I safety wire the oil pump or leave it be?
Thanks,
Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Is turning the oil pump backwards (CLOCKWISE) the correct direction? "

____ Well it depends on HOW you look at it, doesn't it !?
Normally the pump turns the opposite way that the crankshaft normally does, so let's look at it all from above (rather than from left or right). _ Since the crankshaft is meant to turn forward, that means the pump-shaft normally turns rearward,, so then to get the pump to suck-in your bit of oil (in the wrong-direction), it would then need to be turned-forward.
__ Or more simply,, you could've just simply turned the pump-shaft in either direction and FIND-OUT (if it sucks-in your oil you filled into the hole, or instead, uselessly blows-out bubbles.
__ Anyhow, unless you use a really THICK oil (for this minor task), it will just drain-out from the pump before you can get the eng.cover reinstalled, anyway !



" Should I safety wire the oil pump or leave it be? "

____ Well since you've got the eng-cover removed already, it would then make the whole job more worth-while to go-ahead & do that as well. _ Cuz even-though it may not be real important to have those four screws safety-wired, why-not wire them down anyways ?



Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Chuck]

I am going back to the beginning to check that I have read the instructions in the book and from you correctly. I feel that I have done something fundamentally wrong at the very beginning and that is throwing everything off.

As you suggested I set the p.drive one tooth counterclockwise when looking at the gear.

When the book says to turn the engine clockwise or counterclockwise I assume they mean looking at the motor from the side with the degree wheel. I have the motor at TDC compression - both valve are closed and I can hear and feel the tappets clearance. The timing marks also line up. When I turn the motor, as the books says, about 1/4 turn clockwise to set the pions gap I can only get about .011/.012 clearance. When I turn the motor in the counterclockwise direction as the book instructs the points really open up. I thought I would see the points going from a closed to open. I am also having trouble getting the test light to light up brighter than a dull glow.

Do you know what I am doing wrong? Attached are 2 photos, one with the points and cam at TDC and one at 1/4 turn clockwise.
Thanks
Chuck

[Jordan]

Set points gap where the cam follower opens the points to the widest gap. You have it on the ramp in the 1/4 turn photo.

Jordan

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I feel that I have done something fundamentally wrong at the very beginning and that is throwing everything off. "

____ So far, I-myself have not noticed anything to lead me to concur with that (fairly unlikely) suspicion.


" As you suggested I set the p.drive one tooth counterclockwise when looking at the gear. "

____ Right, (but I really didn't like having to do that, as I've never before had to do that in-order to get the ign.timing set to it's correct setting). _ But it's not really important to have all the t.dots lined-up exactly anyhow,, just so we get the ign.timing properly set (within the available points-plate adjustment-slot), is the main-goal.


" When the book says to turn the engine clockwise or counterclockwise I assume they mean looking at the motor from the side with the degree wheel. "

____ I suppose that would indeed be the case if it's directions include the use of degree-wheel (on the motor's left-side). _ However I-myself would avoid such confusion by stating crankshaft 'forward' (for CCW) or 'reverse' (for CW).


" I have the motor at TDC compression -
The timing marks also line up. When I turn the motor, as the books says, about 1/4 turn clockwise to set the pions gap I can only get about .011/.012 clearance. "

____ When you rotate the crankshaft rearward 90-degrees from TDC, (as you've stated in other-words), you should then get NO clearance at all between the points, (rather than your ".011/.012") !
You therefore must have the points 'set' with WAY-TOO-MUCH 'gap' ! _ So you must relax the screw which holds the points and let the gap close-down,, that is, downward until you get a maximum clearance of .018" ! _ And that recommended gap-setting should be set (roughly)- when the t.dots on the bevel-gears are directly aligned.
__ You seem to have figured-out on your-own which-way (of the two possible ways) to attach the AAU onto it's drive-shaft... That-is, when the t.dots are aligned, the points-cam's ramp has just-then opened the points-gap (to near max). _ And it's at (or very near) this rotation-point where the correct gap is to be set at !
I recommend setting at a gap of 18-thousands, (cuz then the engine will run longer before the gap eventually falls-down to a point where/when it will no-longer run well).


" When I turn the motor in the counterclockwise direction as the book instructs the points really open up. I thought I would see the points going from a closed to open. "

____ Well that all stands-to-reason, (as you CURRENTLY happen to have the points secured-down against the plate)...
Certainly you must understand that it's possible to 'adjust' the relationship between the pair of contact-points, as they're secured to the plate !? _ As they are not intended to be left attached to the plate with just any-Ol random amount of gap-relationship which you happened to apply when you screwed-down their securing-screw ! _ (Behind the head of that securing-screw & it's washer, isn't merely just a round-hole, but rather an oblong one,, so that thus-then allows for adjusting the secured-relationship between the contact-points, as they're 'set' .)
__ So as I've already directed above (in other-words),, loosen the points securing-screw and let the gap drop-down until you get a MAXIMUM-gap of .017 to .019",
which should occur when the points-cam-ramp has max.peaked, (while the engine is rotated forwardly). _ That way, whenever the points-cam-follower is at the bottom of the points-cam-ramp, the points-gap will THEN be fully closed-shut !
____ Next, you'll adjust the ign.timing, using the points-plate's screw-slots, (and NOT with the 'points-gap' adjustment).



" I am also having trouble getting the test light to light up brighter than a dull glow. "

____ I don't know exactly what-all you're using. _ If you can show a picture of that which you have to work with, then maybe I can offer some advice with it.


" Do you know what I am doing wrong? "

____ Hopefully whatever it might've been, it's now been covered.
If not, then please try explaining whatever your concern, again (in other-words).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Chuck]

Hi Bob,

I have the motor back together and it is nice and strong. Getting to correct timing was a little difficult because the motor wanted to keep revolving as I got to 8 or 5° and my timing disk was just homemade but I must be close because the motor starts and runs nicely. I will next ask about the carburation.

Thanks for your help.

Chuck