Monza timing??

[ecurbruce]

I always drop the thrust washers from that points drive gear, so take note where they go and be sure they're in place

[Chuck]

Hi Bob,

All your advice has been very helpful but I'm at a point where I need your help again. I got the timing cover loose but I can't get the points gear shaft to move back into the timing chest as I take off the cover. At this point should I pull out the AAU, it seems to be keyed to the inner shaft and feels like it will come out easily. Can it only go back on one way? Can I assume that the inner shaft with the screw is NOT to come out. Is the screws only job to keep the AAU from coming off the shaft?

I tried putting the screw back into the shaft and using a soft hammer to tap gently but it still doesn't move even with very thin wedges between the cover and the motor. When the cover loosened up about a cup of oil dripped out, is this usual? What should I do next?

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I got the timing cover loose but I can't get the points gear shaft to move back into the timing chest as I take off the cover. At this point should I pull out the AAU, it seems to be keyed to the inner shaft and feels like it will come out easily. "

____ The screw that holds the AAU in, should've been removed before this point. _ So go-ahead & remove both it & the AAU, (as that screw is the only thing which should be keeping the p.gear-shaft attached to the eng.cover as that cover is being pulled-off !)



" Can it only go back on one way? "

____ No, it can go back on two possible ways, that's one reason why I instructed to first line-up the timing-dots on the bevel-gears, (as then the points-cam should be in the timed-position when/where the p.gap had just opened).
But the AAU's orientation is not really a concern at this point.



" Can I assume that the inner shaft with the screw is NOT to come out. "

____ Well if you're saying what I think you mean, that shaft (with it's gear) can't possibly come-out OUTWARDLY ! _ That points-drive shaft & it's screw need to be separated-apart first, THEN the shaft (with it's gear) can remain inward & meshed with the oil-pump gear, (thus may come-out only from the INSIDE side of the eng.cover, [once pulled-off from the eng.case] ).



" Is the screws only job to keep the AAU from coming off the shaft? "

____ Yes, that's correct. _ (And that's why the p.drive-gear/shaft is often left attached to the eng.cover when it's removed from the eng.case (by hasty mechanics !).



" I tried putting the screw back into the shaft and using a soft hammer to tap gently but it still doesn't move even with very thin wedges between the cover and the motor. "

____ Well of-course,, cuz you no-doubt still have yet to take-out/remove the AAU (OR just the screw) from the shaft, (before-hand) !



" When the cover loosened up about a cup of oil dripped out, is this usual? "

____ Pretty-much, more or less,, yes.
To help avoid that, you should've had it parked on it's side-stand.



" What should I do next? "

____ Try again (with screw & AAU removed).


____ Once the cover has been taken-off from the eng.case, then with the p.drive-gear/shaft still undisturbed & left in it's place (where it had happened to be set & meshed),, look to see if the timing-dots on the crankshaft-gear & oil-pump gear are aligned, cuz if they are, then the other timing-dots on the oil-pump gear & points-drive-gear should then also be aligned.
If none of those t.dots are aligned (while the upper bevel-pair's t.dots still are), then turn-over the engine until not only are the bevel-gear t.dots aligned, but also the t.dots on the crankshaft & oil-pump gears become aligned as well. _ (I used to know exactly how many turns to TDC this could possibly take, but I no-longer recall,, chances are though, that it won't take much over 35-turns past TDC.)
When all THOSE timing-dots have aligned, THEN the t.dots on the p.drive-gear & oil-pump gear SHOULD also align with one-another !
But in YOUR case, we expect that you'll find that the t.dot on the points-gear is one tooth advanced/miss-aligned (from the t.dot on the pump-gear).
And-so if that's the actual-case, then go-ahead & pull-out the p.drive-gear/shaft outward from it's current meshed-status, and then rotate it one tooth counterclockwise and reinsert into it's PROPER meshed-position, which then ought-to perfectly align that pair of timing-dots (along with all the rest).
__ If this job doesn't go according to expected plan, then how-about posting a pic of what you actually have going-on in/behind there ?



Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

PS. _ Note that I've ALSO added wording to my previous-post, cuz you've since asked questions which I hadn't previously expected (from a mechanic).

[Chuck]

I think I found the problem. Can I just pull out the timing gear a little and set it back into the correct place so the dots meet? Is there anything else I should do before putting everything back?

Thanks,

Chuck

[Chuck]

The pictures didn't attach with the first thread.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I think I found the problem. "

____ Exactly what did you find ?


" Can I just pull out the timing gear a little and set it back into the correct place so the dots meet? "

____ Of-course, (as that's what I've already instructed would likely need to be done [IF all the other t.dots are already aligned] ).


" Is there anything else I should do before putting everything back? "

____ Make sure you still have the thrust-washer in place and the oil-pump drive-tip properly set, so as to fit into it's slot in it's drive-gear.

____ Your picture looks to indicate that the associated t.dots were not just one, but actually TWO-teeth off ! - (Providing that all the other t.dots were aligned when that pic was taken.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[Chuck]

What do you make of this pictures? There are two sets of dot and they don't line up. Is the end of the oil pump gear supposed to be welded?

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Alright, with this latest pic you've posted, I now see that you haven't yet gotten ALL the timing-dot/marks aligned-up (as was expected)... So now it's more clear as to why I was somewhat surprised that it had SEEMED your points-drive-gear was looking to be "TWO" teeth advanced (instead of only one-tooth, as had been expected). ...
__ As I had advised,, if it was discovered that none of those timing-gears in/behind there were found with their t.dots aligned (even though the top bevel-gear pair had been set aligned),, that then you needed to turn-over the engine until ALL t.dots (except perhaps your p.drive-gear), finally became all aligned-up.
That turn-over procedure may take, (if memory serves), up to 7 t.dot-alignments of the upper bevel-gears before ALL timing-dot/marks become aligned-up, all CONCURRENTLY. _ So as you continue turning-over the engine, every time you see that upper bevel-gear pair's t.dots align, then check to see if the t.dots on the lower bevel-gear pair AND the t.dots on the crankshaft-gear & oil-pump gear have also become aligned.
Cuz then at that point, you should then see whether the t.dots on the pump-gear & points-drive-gear also align-up or not.



" There are two sets of dot and they don't line up. "

____ Huhh/what ? _ Well,, I guess I think I may know what you're possibly referring to...
You probably mean that the oil-pump gear has "two" t.dots on it and neither is aligned with either of the others (which they're intended to be aligned with).
Well here's the deal on that... If you take note of the t.dot on the p.drive-gear, you should notice that IT is at what could be thought of as a FEMALE-location, while it's mating-t.dot (on the oil-pump gear) is at a MALE-location.
Whereas the OTHER t.dot on the oil-pump gear is at a female-location so that IT can align-up with the male-located t.dot on one of the teeth of the crankshaft !
__ Now the reason those t.dots back inside there have not yet aligned-up, is quite-likely because you haven't yet fulfilled my instruction about turning/cranking-over the engine until ALL the t.dot-pairs have become aligned, (with the likely exception of the last pair that's associated with the points-drive-gear [which we expect to be one-tooth advanced from being properly aligned] ).
__ Please let me know if ALL the timing-dot/marks never become aligned by the time you've turned-over the engine as many as 7-times where/when the upper bevel-gear t.dots have been aligned - (that's up to 70-rotations past TDC). _ Cuz if ALL the t.dots don't align sometime within that many rotations of the engine, then I have another possibility for us to consider.
____ And let me know if I STILL haven't made my wording clear enough for you, as to exactly what the situation/deal is here, with all of this.



" Is the end of the oil pump gear supposed to be welded? "

____ Yes, as that's been done at the factory.



Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Chuck]

More confusion. I had my son rotate the engine 7 times (twice - 14 times to be sure) by turning the back wheel in 5th gear in the correct direction. I painted the t.dotes with a drop of silver paint to make them easier to see. The top & bottom bevel-gear dots aline every 7 turns like you said but the timing gear dots never came close to being in the correct place. The timing dots seemed to be in a different place every 7 turns. It's funny but the when I opened the timing cover a few days ago they were in the closest position to being correct. I thought about having my son keep turning the back wheel until I came up with this alinement again but it seemed like a waist of time. I am attaching a few pictures, the picture without the paint is the way the gears were when I opened up the case with top & bottom bevel-gear dots alined.

Could it be that a previous owner took out the oil pump and timing gears and put them back wrong?

Thanks,

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" More confusion. "

____ After reading-through your entire new-post, I've not found anything that's actually confusing. _ So I wonder exactly what it is that you think was "more confusion" ?



" I had my son rotate the engine 7 times (twice - 14 times to be sure) . "

____ When you state "7 times", do you simply mean seven separate tries at rotating-over the engine (an undetermined amount),, OR actually, turning-over the engine just seven complete crankshaft-rotations (to TDC each rotation) ?



" The top & bottom bevel-gear dots aline every 7 turns like you said "

____ My previous particularly chosen-wording had-not intentionally made any specific-point directly concerning that intermediate-occurrence, (as that's not a particularly important alignment-point to be aware-of here with the intended task at-hand).
That which I HAD intended to state, is that ALL -(every single pair of them !), of the t.dot-pairs should become aligned every 7th time that the pair of t.dots on the upper bevel-gear pair do !
__ And since THAT pair aligns every 10-TDCs, (as I believe I recall),, then the math - (10 x 7 = 70), would indicate that it takes 70-TDCs for ALL of the t.dot-pairs to become (re)-aligned (again).



" but the timing gear dots never came close to being in the correct place. "

____ Well with only 14 engine-rotations past TDC, it then would've been fairly LUCKY to have gotten ALL the T.dots aligned, so soonly ! _ Cuz as I had pointed-out before (in a previous-post), it takes 70-TDCs of engine-rotations to re-align ALL the t.dots (from the previous time when they were all aligned-up). _ So thus-then, (with the eng.cover removed at an unknown/random crankshaft location-point), chances are, one then ought to expect to have to turn-over the engine past TDC about 35-times (more or less, [don't ya figure] ).
Now since you've only gone "14" turns past TDC, you should then have absolutely NO MORE than (70 - 14 = ) 56 more turns to TDC to go, (and PROBABLY less than 35 more turns).



" The timing dots seemed to be in a different place every 7 turns. "

____ Well of-course ! _ And eventually, they all MUST return-back to where-ever they were once seen to be ! - As their locations will APPEAR as random until they finally get-back to ALL being aligned (as they were once set to be).



" It's funny but the when I opened the timing cover a few days ago they were in the closest position to being correct. "

____ Yes, as luck had it for you, they unfortunately weren't ALL aligned as HOPED,, as that then would've avoided this confusion for you.
__ At THAT point (when the oil-pump gear was 'off' [time] by "TWO" teeth), we could've made this process simpler for you by simply pulling-out that pump-gear and re-setting it back-in rotated counterclockwise by just those two-teeth, (so that then everything could be all aligned-up). _ HOWEVER, doing that would NOT have solved your original-problem,, AND the reason we are doing this (seemingly) the hard-way, is so we can learn FOR-SURE whether or not your timing-gears were already ACTUALLY set out-of-time some way or another.
Otherwise, if we had gone-forth and simply just properly-reset all the timing-gears from-scratch (as most hasty mechanics would've done), then we'd never know for-sure what had been wrong and after all the tear-down & re-assembly work was done & completed, we could've then found that nothing had actually been changed and you'd STILL be back where you had started-at in the first-place.



" I thought about having my son keep turning the back wheel until I came up with this alinement again but it seemed like a waist of time. "

____ Well it actually wouldn't have been a waste-of-time because, sometime before THAT particular point of aligned & misaligned t.dot-combination would've once-again come-back into existence once-more,, you would've first/sooner chanced-upon the expected TDC/t.dot-combination which would've had ALL the t.dot-pairs perfectly-aligned (with the possibly probable exception of the t.dot on the points-drive-gear) !



" Could it be that a previous owner took out the oil pump and timing gears and put them back wrong?

____ It may be that the oil-pump gear, (which is merely a 'transferring-link' [like a chain who's number of links/(teeth) is actually irrelevant] ), had been pulled-out & re-set back-in with it's two t.dot positions ignored,, BUT if any other gear was left WAY-out of time, then the engine would not have been able to run at all !
__ This possible thought you've brought-up is what I had lightly touched-on previously, however we can't reach that conclusion until after you've turned-over the engine up-to/at-least 70-TDCs and could not get ALL the timing-dot/marks to ever become properly-aligned.
__ Are you sure that you-yourself have not added to such a possibility (by unintentionally pulling-out the p.drive-gear & losing it's previous-meshed/timing state) ?


____ I hope this all makes good-sense to you by now, and you now finally realize that which needs to be done.
As I'm looking-forward to finally determining exactly what's wrong with your particular ign.timing-issue !



Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

BTW, have I mentioned that it could take up to SEVENTY crankshaft-rotations to TDC before ALL the timing-dot/marks become all aligned !?
Just want to make that point perfectly clear, before you get confused & give-up.