n-c alternator modifications: discussion and testing

[wcorey]

Otherwise I-myself am thinking of FIRST merely amputating-off & over (to a new-tread), just from the point where you started (thankfully!) taking-over this thread,, and continue-on from there.

Sure, that sounds good, keeps it simple. Looks like we're on the same page with this...

So what exactly do you request/suggest ?

When you find time to go a little further...
In again reading though some of the ‘6-coil alt in a n/c 250’ thread, I now think it’s too complicated to split up cleanly.
I'd move everything left in the '6v or 12v?' thread starting from Mike’s page two post (with the exception the 3 posts right after it) into the end of the ‘6-coil alt in a n/c 250’ thread.

I agree that the test data thread you had already started should be reserved for your original intent of putting only the ‘cleaned up’ data there. Someday…


Bill

[wcorey]

All this 3 phase conversion stuff I've been doing of late is of doubtful interest to most, now redundant for me and my own project and I'm sure way beyond the reality of what the typical member here wants to deal with on their own projects. I may continue on and reorganize it to it's own separate thread (as I was last year going to do with similar info in another thread) but feel it's past due time to shift some effort into a DIY thread that would distill and consolidate the more practical, 'end user applicable' aspects of what we've learned here and doesn't deviate from that mission.
In wishful thinking, it would be more information/conclusions and less conjecture/discussion; after all, we've had enough of the latter here for any ten threads.
Much of it is available here already but hidden/entangled in heaps of discussion, speculation and over-engineering.

It’s clear that the bottom line for most (who have likely long ago given up trying to follow along) is just to know the easiest route to get enough output to run a 55w headlight at a reasonable 'breakeven' point. Bevel-bob has provided some good perspective toward seeing this.
Bruce has been following and contributing to this from the beginning and also has a vested interest in the outcome but has been quiet for some time now. I’d be curious to know what his perspective is on all this so far and if plans for his partly modified stator have yet solidified.
Mike, care to take a chance...?


It would be easy to declare the 3-section mod ‘the winner’, write up an explanation and say the mission has been accomplished. But… I’m at this time fairly certain that there’s not only one particular solution that closest fits everyone’s needs, ambition and abilities, it’s surely debatable. I’m sure DCT-Bob has other ideas…

To sort this out and then accomplish the task of an uncluttered, user friendly how-to, I'd like to hash it out on this thread first. Once clarified, only then to be transferred to a new home so to be sure it doesn’t turn into another meandering, opinionated, complicated to follow type thing (of no real consequence here as the horse is already long out of the barn anyway).
If there ends up being more than one solution (or opinion) on how best to achieve a particular end (there should be a few), they each could be put into separate posts (or threads) along with the opinions on why. Without pages of debate…
It appears everyone is a little burned out on this and I'll be mostly doing it myself, which is fine but... One of my concerns is that I'll get it done on my own terms and then the questions and debate will start again after the fact. To combat this I'll be posting many of my perspectives/opinions (in the next installment) here to encourage picking them apart and getting that over with here and now.


I'd like to start again at the beginning and get back to the basics, where it all started (within this thread) more or less. Should be relatively easy now that we know what we know…

I think it may be easier for me to do some of the stock 6-pole alt testing all over again, rather than to go back through and reverse engineer the whole thread, I have already somewhat tried to do it and given up in confusion. Ideally I’d be starting from the unaltered four coil stator and working incrementally 'forward' toward the 3 section, skipping the already known dead ends and using only a few standardized test procedures. I even have a promising new untested configuration I’m wanting to try out. One problem is that I'm not sure I can figure out how to get the stator back to original, though luckily I took plenty of pics...

So what are the more significant steps/setups that should be concentrated on and what can be skipped?


Speaking of which, I also think it's worthwhile to pursue finishing off the comprehensive drawings of the stock and modified stator versions showing connections in schematic form and also maybe as the wires are laid out on the physical unit.
Photo’s (I have some) with arrows and written explanations added may be fine for the physical layout.

We have some good drawings from Bruce but I seem to recall some details being in question…is this one (from pg 23) accurate?

download/file.php?id=591&t=1

This one (pg 32) is a great basis but still needs to be detailed in with the actual connections for the various options.

download/file.php?id=614&t=1

I'm still unclear on some details of how the windings are organized on the stock 4-coil stator. I can put power to two of the four wires on a coil/core and check for magnetism so as to know that pair of wires is an individual coil winding but have yet to figure out how to tell if it’s the inner or outer. Did anyone ever figure out which external wires go to which coil windings (inner/outer)? Does it matter?


To be continued....


Bill

[ecurbruce]

Bill,
I'd be glad to jump back in there with you, I'm in the middle of moving right now, so time is limited. The drawing you first referenced (p.23?) IS incorrect. The second one needs finishing, I left it that way on purpose so it could be used for a template for anyone to wire any way they saw fit. I'll configure it to what we see is the best schematic...

[DewCatTea-Bob]

So what exactly do you request/suggest ?

____ What I had hastily-meant by "exactly", etc., had been intended with hopes along the lines that, with your relatively recent exploration of the extended-thread to be divided-up, you'd thus be better enabled to suggest the particular page & post as the place to start-&-cut, (to then be moved-over to an intended new & more-dedicated thread).
And also, perhaps even provide some particular/definite Title for the intended-thread, if not go-ahead yourself & create the thread
(with an introduction-post of some sort) as well.
__ I think it would turn-out best if we work together on this to some fair degree, so that you'll be most pleased, and I'll be at least content,, so as to make most everything best presentable to others.
____ No demands here, just merely requesting that which you care to help provide.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[JimF]

What can I do to help? The information in this thread is thorough but nobody is likely to read 42 pages of threads.

A whole web page that summarizes everything would be great, but that's two and a half commitments for any one guy.

I tired to get a web page going where several people could edit the same doucment using google docs on a similar thread, but I got hit with the biggest project of my life a month later and I dropped the ball and never got it going again.

Jim

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" The information in this thread is thorough but nobody is likely to read 42 pages of threads. "

____ I wouldn't say "nobody" ! - As I believe this thread has the record for the greatest number of hits. _ Perhaps the likely few who are really interested in most all of it, have each been having to re-hit the thread at least several times, in order to get through all of it's contained posts ?

[wcorey]

Bruce, good luck with your move, plenty of time later to play with the drawings.

____ What I had hastily-meant by "exactly", etc., had been intended with hopes along the lines that, with your relatively recent exploration of the extended-thread to be divided-up, you'd thus be better enabled to suggest the particular page & post as the place to start-&-cut...

Hmm. I thought I was being pretty exact, short of supplying post dates.
Since you suggested starting the alt mod thread at my first post, I just assumed you knew where it was, sorry. That would be pg 8, 5 posts down. I can edit a short intro/explanation as well as links to the original and related threads to the beginning of that post. Or if I start the thread I'll leave the first post blank to use for the same purpose.

After separating the alt test/mod stuff, take everything else starting at/including Mike’s post on pg 2, 4 posts down, (but skip (keep in 6v or 12v?) the next three posts) and move it all to the end of the "six coil alternator in a narrow case 250" thread (on second 'thread page'). If you or Mike wanted, you could edit in an explanation of where it came from (and links to the other threads) in your first post there.


What to call it? I dunno... How long can a title be, lol?
How about;
“Discussions and test data for increased output on the stock and modified n/c 6-pole alternator, original huge unedited edition” or "Yet another alt mod discussion"?

I'll have to think about that one... There's already going to be a separate test data thread and a 'useful alt modifications DIY' thread... Anyone else have suggestions?
I'll start with "yet another..." for now and edit in something more appropriate later...

What can I do to help?

Hey Jim, hopefully we have it under control... Is it possible for each post to be automatically sequentially numbered within each thread? Would be convenient as a referencing tool.

Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Since you suggested starting the alt mod thread at my first post, I just assumed you knew where it was, sorry.
That would be pg 8, 5 posts down. "

____ I did know where it was but have since certainly forgotten what page it was on (and it would be difficult to find again & be real-certain I've found the correct one). _ That page-number is what I needed, thanks.


" What to call it? I dunno... How long can a title be, ? "

____ Not too long, about seven words,, and if you go the max, several letters will then get cut-off from the end !


" How about;
"Yet another alt mod discussion"? "

____ All your work deserves much better than that, Bill !


" I'll start with "yet another..." for now and edit in something more appropriate later... "

____ If you wish to be the one to start the new thread, (which is most appropriate), you ought not try that idea cuz you may not be able to edit the thread-title after it's first been created, (without deleting the original post-thread).
__ This seems to be a risky venture, cuz once anything is deleted, it's then unrecoverable ! _ And we've once lost an entire thread because one of our members once wanted all of his posts (within the thread which he-himself had created), deleted, (which then lost everyone-elses' posts as well).

____ Since your modesty may curtail a worthy thread-title created by your own-self, perhaps then I should do it ?
We'll wait & see if anyone has a better/good suggestion, (since your suggested extended-title is too long).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

Bob, I was at least half joking about the long thread name but everything I come up with is somewhat longish. Nothing to do with modesty, it just needs to be descriptive enough so people can tell what it is. And if you're thinking about referencing my name in it, that's just using up valuable title space. I look at it as an archive that very few will ever bother to read through anyway and if we do a good job on the follow up threads no one will even need it.
I went back and edited a title to an old thread I'd started and found that function to work fine, so I'll go ahead and start the new thread with a temporary name. I'm sure you can edit it also...

Bill

[wcorey]

Bob, I thought of something that may make the thread editing task easier, depending on what administrative tools you have available. If you can select and move the entire thing at once then that's great but if you have to move it page by page then not so much. I know because I just backed it all up to a (523 page, 926,825 character!) Word doc by doing 35 page by page copy/pastes...

As an alternative to moving the alt mod section, you could instead move the page and a half of '6v or 12v' (As well as the next '5 pages' to '6 coil alt in a n-c 250') to another thread of that name and rename this one as the alt thread.

Bill