Early Scrambler Restoration Info Needed

[joe46ho]

Looking for help/input from either one person who is really good on the old n/c scramblers(Come on, who is the early n/c scrambler guru?? Bob? Eldert? Anyone? ), and or little bits and pieces from everyone...
If you go to the tech pages on here (or factory svc. manual) It only shows the n/c 250 scr. using the Aprilia "flat back" headlight, which would also mean It could not have a speedo ? (unless mounted in a separate bracket, which I have never seen) It also only shows the "peanut" gas tank, which I do not have. I believe that the scr manual i'm looking at is really only for the early scr, up till some point in 64 ? Possibly only the 4-speed scr? But, if you look at the "5-speed" parts manual which shows the later n/c dukes, It shows the correct tank that I have, the ss1 27 d Carb. The folding footpegs, etc... However it still shows ONLY the Aprilia Flatback headlamp, Going by the serial # on my scr I just bought, it surely is a later 5-speed, possibly even a 1966 ? I am not concerned with the exact build date or anything, I just want to restore this motorcycle as correct as humanly possible.
The factory wiring schematic shows "from ser # 92172" To have a keyswitch in the headlamp bucket, so I believe this to be a bullet headlamp, although it doesnt specify. It also shows the 28w charging sys, and a 7ah battery

The "till ser. #92171" shows only a bar mounted aprilia light switch, i believe this to be the flatback style...it shows a 40w charging system, it also shows a taillight, but no battey... I didnt think they set any up like this ?

Neither of the schem. show a horn...

The headlight is the first thing i'm having trouble with, also need to know the following...
Correct headlamp switch location? brand/part # ?
Correct type of bars ?
Correct headlamp bucket ? (Note: I have a 130mm Bullet style Aprilia already that did come from a scr hoping it is the one i need
Correct headlight ears ? (center drilled hole for 31.5mm forks, or "oval" adj. hole ?)
Source, or recommendations on someone to restore seat (have an excellent pan, but curious about the "rivets" mainly, and a reproduction cover ? foam ?)
Should mine have a battery ? if so im assuming 7ah 6volt
Did they all have tailights ? I had understood it that not all early scr's had tailights/ and if they didnt they had no battery also?
Correct tailight ? (CEV 5749 ??)
Rear brake switch is listed as a Aprilia 4339/4 best i can tell, but cev has one that looks almost identical 99% anyone know correct one ? Cant even find an aprilia one...
If the 130mm Bullet style is correct, and they did use speedo's...
Then which speedo ? Veglia? CEV? Scale of speedo ?
Correct headlamp bucket orientation (i.e. there are 2 holes... one for old style "plunger" key switch, one for headlamp switch ?
What Would be on bars ? strictly choke/ft. brake/clutch levers ? or would it have had a kill switch/hi/low switch ?
Mine has no horn, I cant fathom where it ever would have had one mounted, I also understand some scr did not have horns ?
I see pics of the heel toe shift lever on many scr's mine does not have that, but I do have one, honestly I cant believe this is right, surely they did not all come with the heel toe lever correct ?
Correct footpeg rubbers ?

Almost all of these questions could be answered with a few good up close pics of an early scr like mine, my serial # is 99743
The best I can tell is this duke would have originally looked exactly like the one that is the background image for the tech page on here, however I can't find more pics of that, anyone know who's it is ? I have thousands of duke pics on my computer and almost none of them are of early scramblers, I dont know why but finding good pics of unrestored, or restored/correct early scr's seems to be a real pain...
Hoping someone can at least point me in the right direction....
Joe
I

[Eldert]

Hi Joe

sorry i can help you out on this . the narrowcase scrambler was made for the American market

i dont think they sold in Europe

keep in mind this is a 45 y.o. bike . i would fit any scrambler part i have laying around
i would not sell a kidney to buy a pancake style headlamp if you have a bullet type headlamp you can fit

on the other hand if you a patient enough the right part will show up for the right price
i have a pancake headlight i paid 39 dollar for . at the Imola swap meet i found a brand new n.c. scrambler
front fender cheap

Eldert

P.S. the slotted headlamp ears are widecase items i think

[joe46ho]

Thanks Eldert,

Honestly Im not worried about it being exactly 100% "correct" especially since some peoples definition of this varies. (and because Ducati seemed to do some unorthodox things back then also) I know what you mean on the pancake headlight, selling a kidney does seem like the only option for me to get one I hope I can find front and rear fenders for a reasonable price also. I don't plan on this going quickly or smoothly. I know it will take a while, I will be focusing on the 450 scr project (my brothers) for now anyway. Regards... Joe

[double diamond]

Hey Joe,

The attached pic was represented as an original SCR. The muffler isn't original but the rest looks believable.

[ajleone]

Joe,
Look at the part manuals that were posted on this web site, and that will answer 90% of your questions. I have owned 5 250 narrowcase scramblers and the parts books are pretty accurate to what I have found. Just a couple of notes: none of the scramblers had horns. There are 2 basic electrical setups - full magneto, 1965-1966-ish and battery 1966-ish to 1967-ish. There are a lot of details in the parts book, but you have to look carefully, like the 19 inch front/back on the early models and 19/18 inch rims on the 1967 models. 7-fin hubs on the eariler 1965-1966 models, 3/4-fin hubs on the later models. Early 1965 models had no speedo "pancake" headlight and the later models had speedo's (Veglia) in the headlight shell.

If the pics you posted are you bike - looks like you got a nice one ! Also, I am not shy about making the bikes into what I want, so like putting a different handlebar, for example, is simple and does not distract from the value of the bike (someone can buy an original handlebar if they want). I also like the way a short Silentium muffler looks on these bikes - the same one used on the widecase 450 Jupiters.

Fun stuff ! I can post some pics if you want some specifics. Just ask.
Tony

[joe46ho]

Thanks Tony, and thanks for all the input so far...

Well I found out why I was having so much trouble finding an accurate pic of the bullet style headlamp fitted to 66? 67? n/c scr's
I decided to browse every parts manual, and found it IN THE WIDECASE MANUAL ?? I have no idea why they did this, but they do have the correct serial number break (i assume anyway) look at this pic, from the newest, latest widecase parts book (68-73) It clearly states this is for 92172- fino 250 scr which means till, but there is no ending # So I guess it means, till the end of the n/c production... Since my serial # starts with 99 I am assuming that it must be a very late n/c scr. maybe even a 67 ? but a 66 at least for sure, from what ive gathered so far. Still scratching my head on the tail lamp, and bracket. The w/c manual also shows this (for the late n/c models ??) but it looks just like what came on my dad's 1970 450scr, except the switch is omitted...somehow I doubt this is correct...If anyone knows 1st hand please tell me. Took another look at the hubs/wheels/fenders... 3 rib hub in front, 4 rib in back, 19" front rim, 18" rear. Folding footpegs, also the rear fender does look as if it had the "widecase" style tailamp bracket mounted to it. I noticed in pics of later n/c dukes, that the ones from the u.k. had the rectangular tailamp, and the usa models had the round lamp, and different bracket to suite... Hopefully someone knows for sure. I don't think this is anything i am going to find in any parts book this will probably be 1st hand knowledge of someone who owned/owns a later 66 or 67 scr bought in the usa

One final thought... Someone jump in if im wrong...but they NEVER made a widecase scrambler with an a/c coil, "magneto" (batteryless) ignition, and a diode in the headlight housing correct ?? except maybe the 450 r/t (i have no idea on that one) but lets stick with the 250 to make it simpler... So if that is true and I believe it is, than these pics are of the late n/c scr. parts, and if so. are the right pics ive been looking for...

Joe

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Sorry Joe, I haven't been motivated much lately to stay-up on what's going on here for the past few days.
__ It's a shame that it seems I'm the only one here who has all the correct answers and will bother to tell you them all.
First, you don't have an "early" Scrambler (which was 1961-63), the serial-# you gave makes it a certain '1966' !


" Well I found out why I was having so much trouble finding an accurate pic of the bullet style headlamp fitted to 66? 67? n/c scr's
I decided to browse every parts manual, "

____ The 1966-Scr style headlamp shell/bucket is indeed found depicted within the n-c parts-book '1965-onward' version (which includes the Sebring) !


" and found it IN THE WIDECASE MANUAL ?? I have no idea why they did this, but they do have the correct serial number break (i assume anyway) look at this pic, from the newest, latest widecase parts book (68-73) "

____ That's because the same electrical-system (& most all other parts) first used on the 1966-Scr, was also employed on the first wide-case 250/350 Scrambler-models of 1967 !


" It clearly states this is for 92172- fino 250 scr which means till, but there is no ending # So I guess it means, till the end of the n/c production... "

____ I believe this means from the first 1966-model, until the end of the line of production for that model-style (which was actually in 1968, [& never updated, as the 350 obviously is] ).


" Since my serial # starts with 99 I am assuming that it must be a very late n/c scr. maybe even a 67 ? but a 66 at least for sure, from what ive gathered so far. "

____ It's a one-year only model - 1966 ! _ (However, left-over n-c '66s were sold & titled in 1967, for sure.)


" Still scratching my head on the tail lamp, and bracket. The w/c manual also shows this (for the late n/c models ??) but it looks just like what came on my dad's 1970 450scr, except the switch is omitted...somehow I doubt this is correct...If anyone knows 1st hand please tell me. "

____ The 1966-on (made for USA [in Italy] n-c & w-c) Scrambler-models all used the same tail-lamp parts (with no included switch) !
The shown "switch" is totally fictitious for any model made after 1965 ! _ So I believe that particular drawing was borrowed from a late-65 (& virtually non-existent) production.


" Took another look at the hubs/wheels/fenders... 3 rib hub in front, 4 rib in back, 19" front rim, 18" rear. Folding footpegs, also the rear fender does look as if it had the "widecase" style tailamp bracket mounted to it.
I noticed in pics of later n/c dukes, that the ones from the u.k. had the rectangular tailamp, and the usa models had the round lamp, and different bracket to suite... "

____ All 'correct' !
(Although it's certain that some DUKE-models made it into the U.S. with the made-for-Europe parts.)


" Hopefully someone knows for sure. I don't think this is anything i am going to find in any parts book this will probably be 1st hand knowledge of someone who owned/owns a later 66 or 67 scr bought in the usa "

____ It seems that there's getting to be very few of such of us left.


" Someone jump in if im wrong...but they NEVER made a widecase scrambler with an a/c coil, "magneto" (batteryless) ignition, and a diode in the headlight housing correct ?? "

____ That's INcorrect ! - The first '1967' wide-case -(called "wide-deck" back at the time) 250/350 Scrambler-models employed the same electrical-system as your 1966-Scr, (not to mention most of it's other parts) !
__ (For improved understanding, there's never been any 'magneto' ["full" or otherwise] which came stock on any OHC-Duke ! _ Only an Energy-Transfer [magneto-like setup] ign.system, which happens to emulate most of the workings of an actual/true magneto.)


" So if that is true and I believe it is, than these pics are of the late n/c scr. parts, and if so. are the right pics ive been looking for... "

____ Correct, I believe those included pix seem to be of what you're wanting, (except the depicted switch !).


____ I'm very sure that you could find other (older) posts with very similar concerns & info as that which you're going for here !
Have you not tried doing any searches (for: '1966 250 Scrambler') at all ? - Here's just one result... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=206&p=1814&hilit=250+scrambler#p1261


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[joe46ho]

Bob, I suspected you might be "lurking in the shadows" so to speak...
Thanks a lot for all the helpful info, Until now I never realized they made an "early" w/c without battery type ignition. I guess that shouldn't matter as far as restoring this n/c is concerned but it is interesting...
I realize everyone keeps telling me that there are pics of the later 5 speed n/c scr like I have with the bullet style headlamp contained in the n/c parts cat.... but I can not find any, Every single one depicts it having the aprilia flat back, I already thought this to be incorrect... I suppose I can just go by all the info in my w/c book though, especially since I have a hardcopy of it here in front of me. (only have the n/c manual on the site here to look at) That tailight bracket is very hard to find also, my brother has countless hours invested in the restoring/repairing the one on his 450 scr. Oddly enough the rect. "europe only" tail lamp and bracket are easy to find (but very expensive) I have never seen that switch either, i was wondering why, now i know... I will start searching for the tail lamp and bracket now, also need a aprilia 59n light switch, I have one but it has no cover, and is pretty rough. you can buy a similar looking cev switch, n.o.s. easily, so maybe I will get one of those until I can find the right one... I also need to find out what the warning/ind lamp in the headlamp bucket is for ? and what color it is supposed to be ? I have all other headlamp bucket internals already (found in my dads parts)I need to source fenders also, my rear fender is rough...Are these unique n/c scr only ? The front fender is gone too. I have a Veglia 0-100 mph speedo, this would be correct would it not ? (i have a 0-150 veglia also, but Im 99% sure its off a mark3 or mach1)
Bob, also one important question I had... Since I am only really concerned with outward originality/appearance can I omit the circut board/and diode in the headlight, and run the lighting coils output through one of those handful of bridge recs. I bought (for the other project) ? Im not looking for an "upgrade" really on this duke...just want to save $$ where I can.
I also do not have a skidplate but it looks as if it never had one, and I've seen it listed both ways...

I know this is a lot of q's to ask bob, but, I would think someone such as yourself would appreciate seeing this classic scr restored from a "Missouri/Oklahoma" farm bike, that no one ever took care of....Back to it's former glory of 44 years ago.
Any help is greatly appreciated, no hurry... In the mean time i will keep searching the WWW for pictures/info on this.

[ajleone]

Joe,
Yes, you can setup your elec to be a "total loss" setup, which does away with the charging circuit. Like the bronco's, the 66/67 scramblers, as Bob points out, have a battery that is used for the brake light. If the magneto works enough to create a spark, it will also most likely be able to drive the headlight, although somewhat dim, it does work. There are some wiring diagrams in the shop books as well.
Tony

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I realize everyone keeps telling me that there are pics of the later 5 speed n/c scr like I have with the bullet style headlamp contained in the n/c parts cat.... but I can not find any, Every single one depicts it having the aprilia flat back, "

____ I happen to have 3 different 250 n-c only factory parts-books, and suspect there was another version as well... What duke-models are covered by the n-c p.book(s) you have, (is the 350 included ?) ?

" I also need to find out what the warning/ind lamp in the headlamp bucket is for ? and what color it is supposed to be ?

____ It's a high-beam ON-indicator, red in color.


" I need to source fenders also, my rear fender is rough...Are these unique n/c scr only ? "
____ While fairly interchangeable, they are unique to n-c Scr.models.


" I have a Veglia 0-100 mph speedo, this would be correct would it not ? "

____ I believe so.


" Since I am only really concerned with outward originality/appearance can I omit the circut board/and diode in the headlight, and run the lighting coils output through one of those handful of bridge recs. I bought ? "

____ Yes, sure thing ! _ You can substitute one for the original diode, to keep the battery charged for running a brake-light (& horn) & parking-light, like stock,, or more elaborately, also run main-lights from the battery (instead of AC directly from the alternator).


" I would think someone such as yourself would appreciate seeing this classic scr restored ....Back to it's former glory of 44 years ago. "

____ But of-course !


" In the mean time i will keep searching the WWW for pictures/info on this. "

____ Hope you had understood that I had meant for you to try using our-own search-box, as found at the top-right of most pages here.


Fun-Cheers,
-Bob