Identification Help-My 1965 Mark 3 Diana'ish Find

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: erockson...
" I had not noticed the spark plug threads, "

____ If it's not a "heli-coil", then it's likely a 'threaded-insert' .


" Maybe I was mistaken and what I read was that there were heads that didn't have the fins on top that went all the way through? "


____ Now that's more likely the case but, that's an irrelevant detail for separating 250-head models, as the fully-threaded head-tops were discontinued along with the original square bolt-pattern of the 175/200 cyl.heads !


" Like this head the fins go all the way across "

____ Did you get 'extra' parts along with your Duke-find ?


" The engine came with no valves installed as well as the missing piston (which I believe would have helped further identify). "

____ Too-bad,, the piston should've been the 3-ring type with high dome.


" So it seems it's a 36/33mm head "

____ That would mean that the corresponding intake-port should be under 29mm !
Did you not yet measure it ?


" According to a few others on other sites those m-baruzzo torino wheels are really hard to find and were only used for a few years on the Mach1 and Mark3's, and the butted spokes are correct for just the Mark3's. "

____ Seems to be good/correct info, but I can't confirm that the lightened-type spokes were not also used on the Mach-I.

"These Diana's featured chromed steel rims by M. Baruzzo, which are really hard to find, since they were not used on too many bikes. They are very narrow, 1.6 inch wide for 2.00-2.50 tires... The Diana 250 spokes are the "high performance" variety, 3.5mm at the ends and 3.0mm in the center of the shaft."

____ I have two issues with that offered info...
First, the source is guilty of misuse/overuse of the name "Diana" ! - Thus further adding to the confusion-issue between the real 'Diana 250' & the n-c Mark-3 ! _ (I really hate that !_ [Especially when a supposed Duke-expert states that Dianas have "magnetos".] )
Second, I believe the Mk3 spokes were the same 3mm std.size at their ends and slimmed-down to 2.5mm for their main-length, (that's 3.0/2.5/3.0mm, not 3.5/3.0/3.5mm).


" I'm still quite unsure as to what my final decision will end up being as to what to do with this bike, but either way I figure it needs to be taken down to parts so that everything can be soaked and cleaned to get rid of the rust and grime and put back in properly lubed. "

____ You seem to have the makings of becoming a true 'Duker' !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[machten]

I'm still quite unsure as to what my final decision will end up being as to what to do with this bike, but either way I figure it needs to be taken down to parts so that everything can be soaked and cleaned to get rid of the rust and grime and put back in properly lubed.

It's your bike and at the end of the day you can (and should) do what you like, but my view is that parting it out would be like cutting up the Mona Lisa and selling the bits to hang on peoples walls. For all the possible foilbles, that bike may very well be the greatest restoration opportunity you'll come across. I'd take the opportunity, and if you choose not to, give that total opportunity to someone else.

Kev

[DewCatTea-Bob]

but my view is that parting it out would be like cutting up the Mona Lisa and selling the bits to hang on peoples walls. "

____ Very well-put, Kev !


" that bike may very well be the greatest restoration opportunity you'll come across. "

____ However since he's not a Duke-collector himself, it would be best for him, (if he plans to do any restoring), to merely put it back together well enough to get it in running-shape, rather than go all-out with new paint & decals, and polishing, etc.! _ As most true-collectors don't want that kind of work done by anyone other than themselves ! _ Indeed an all-original Duke in the rough, is really worth more than any less than absolutely-perfectly restored Duke ! _ In other words, a normally-aged lightly-used & unaltered Mk3/M-1 is rightfully more valuable than the commonly OVER-restored Mk3/M-1s.


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

Well if it turns out there is just too much expense in it for me and not enough time (both depend heavily on the wife and my 2 little ones) I was most definitely planning on first trying to go the route of selling it as a whole to a Duker so that it can one day still have the chance to live again. I may be more of the chop, cut, fix, and flip persuasion but also love motorcycles and can most definitely respect and understand the importance of a bike like the one I stumbled across. That being said I've actually already had a few soft inquiries and depending on offers (one guy said he was figuring out the fair value part by part), I may just consider that route right off the bat... so if anyone already knows they would be interested please PM me and I will handle that off of the board so that we keep this thread about identification.

[erockson]

So today I was able to get the cam gear nut off and pull out the cam and the rockers, all look fine and with minimal wear. Still no luck with getting the flywheel to budge though, very lightly tried the 3 prong puller my neighbor had but it wouldn't budge and I didn't want to damage anything, then read something about using a piece of brass or aluminum and rapping the outside corner of the flywheel? Here's the quote from the ducati.ms site:

"You can also try the simple method: using a short strong piece of aluminum or brass rod; place this against the outside edge of the flywheel (on the front face) and give it a sharp hit with a hammer. Don't go overboard and if it does not work after two or three hits give up and get a puller, but it always works for me. "

Anyone ever heard of this and how would that work to get the flywheel off?

I need to get it off somehow as that's the last obstacle in being able to fully crack the cases and see how everything inside weathered the years (with the cases slightly open the whole time).

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Still no luck with getting the flywheel to budge though,
then read something about using a piece of brass or aluminum and rapping the outside corner of the flywheel?

"You can also try the simple method: using a short strong piece of aluminum or brass rod; place this against the outside edge of the flywheel (on the front face) and give it a sharp hit with a hammer."

Anyone ever heard of this and how would that work to get the flywheel off? "

____ I-for-one have never heard of such an abusive method, (but then it's been many decades since I-myself was also a 'backyard-mechanic' type) ! _ I highly recommend against even trying that, cuz permanent-magnets really tend to loose their strength whenever exposed to such shock !
(And just mentioning that you'd possibly consider such kind of non-Duke mechanical-type work on this very-rare gem-in-the-rough you've found, is certainly going to make any prospective-buyers greatly cringe !)


" I need to get it off somehow as that's the last obstacle in being able to fully crack the cases "

____ The flywheel-rotor does not have to be pulled-off in order to split the cases !
__ And before these alt.rotors are pulled-off, it's fairly important to make note of it's 'setting', or else it's possible to permanently loose the fairly-important factory-set flywheel-timing ! - (Which in the eyes of some Dukers, is akin to scratching-off an original side-cover decal,, although more important, as the rotor-timing effects performance on these [magneto like] ET-systems.)


____ Furthermore, here's the thinking of at least THIS-Duker -(myself).....
__ While I would've loved to even dream of making the incredibly wonderful find which you have,
I WOULD'VE been willing to pay you a hefty-profit as a Middle-Man, BUT, as the type of profiteer which you actually are, you've been making the value of your find less & less valuable everyday that you do anything more than just carefully handle any of it !
If you were instead a long time DUCATI-Expert & TRUE Duke-mechanic with a well established reputation, then (maybe) your going-though-it could help it's value somewhat a bit. _ But otherwise the likes of yourself are just hurting your own pocket-book as you continue, (as someone who did not even know what he actually had), to poke-around with it !
If the Duke was just a common Scrambler or Monza model, I would then not have bothered to express my opinion (as a true-Duker) here, but, you don't seem to have any real-clue about the effect you, (as a common bike-wrencher), are actually having on the value of the gem of a Duke you've had fall into your care. _ (Even though only a fraction of the damage already done by the previous-holder, [thus far].)
__ Do what you want as you have been (at your own expense) of course, but you'll then forever be thought of as just another Duke-butcher (whether deserved or not), by at least, THIS-Duker.
__ I had hoped & assumed otherwise, but I've begun to suspect that you won't become a 'Duker' of any real sort. _ But if you ever do, I'm sure you'll then wish that you had first gotten your hands on a more common Duke-model, before-hand !
You are certainly doing yourself a disservice if you don't intend to keep the rare Duke for your own-self ! _ (Unless you fully intend to reassemble it to running-shape and then sell it to someone who's given no clue as to what you've done with it.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

I have been quite careful and documented everything in detailed photos before any dis-assembly. As I mentioned I am still not sure whether or not I can invest the kind of time and money it will take to even get this bike back into running shape, much less get it fully restored (it takes me 8-12 months to restore/customize a common Japanese inline twin with readily available parts, working every 3rd or 4th weekend as the kids/wife permit).

I definitely appreciate all of your knowledge and your passion for these bikes, so if you believe I should leave the cases as is and not try to clean, lube and free the crank and check the gears (my intention with all of this since the cases were left open and dry for an unknown # of years), that is what I will do. I figured that just as with any other bike, that even if it doesn't fire, a clean and freely moving engine and gears would be a plus to any buyer!

And if you'd still be happy to pay that healthy middle-man fee to me just PM me! I begin to see more and more that this rare gem may be a better left to an expert.

[machten]

As I mentioned I am still not sure whether or not I can invest the kind of time and money it will take to even get this bike back into running shape, much less get it fully restored (it takes me 8-12 months to restore/customize a common Japanese inline twin with readily available parts, working every 3rd or 4th weekend as the kids/wife permit).

I hope you choose to pursue it, because they are rewarding beasts. It'll be a long learning curve, but it's not like you haven't worked on bikes at all before. I appreciate it would have been better to do a "lesser" Duc first, but sometimes life's just not like that. If I'd won a Ferarri in a lottery the day I got my driving license, I can tell you that I would have driven it, and to hell with the consequences. (My parents would probably have had a different view!)

In our business at the moment we have chosen to take some risks because the time is right. When I asked one of the Directors if he was comfortable with doing so, he sent me this last week:

There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.

A nice synopsis of taking an opportunity as it arises and regret if not taken. (Unfortunately the context was poor...It is from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, and spoken by Brutus as the conspirators agreed on Caesar's asassination!)

Maybe the time is right, and maybe not. On the other side of the equation, I can tell you that if I was in the US, you'd already have had a PM from me!

Kev

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: erockson...
" I have been quite careful and documented everything in detailed photos before any dis-assembly. "

____ First-off,, considering that it seems you've taken my wording in an unintentional negative-light, I'm pleased that it seems you didn't also take-offense,, as of course nothing of the sort was intended !
I did not sincerely mean to insinuate that you may be likely doing any REAL damage to any of the parts themselves during your activities with them... The kind of damage I actually meant to indicate is that which is lost to a prospective owner who would wish to take-in all the clues which the (remaining) Duke has left to offer, (which someone like yourself would not know to look for!), so that he could better figure the likely history of the Duke. _ (Much the same as police-detectives wanting crime-scenes left undisturbed by untrained-sorts.)


" As I mentioned I am still not sure whether or not I can invest the kind of time and money it will take to even get this bike back into running shape, much less get it fully restored "

____ I don't think it makes good sense for you-yourself to attempt to ever do a full/complete restoration-job on this Duke, unless it was the case that you had already been long aware of various Duke-models and have always wanted one for yourself and planned to keep it, (and thus be a true-Duker!).
__ But I do think that it makes fair sense for you to try to get the Duke back into running-shape, and do believe that's quite possibly within your time & money range.
I had began to doubt that doing so was the best way to go because you more recently posted that you already had bites for the Duke, and considering your situation, the 'quick turn-over' type of deal would likely be best for you, so you could then sooner move onto the type of wheel-dealing you're more used to. _ And in this case, you needed to be informed that you were likely working against your own interest (of time vs profit) from both ends.


" so if you believe I should leave the cases as is and not try to clean, lube and free the crank and check the gears,
that is what I will do. "

____ Well as I had hoped you would've understood, it depends on whether or not you intend to go for the quick-turnover (as a mere MiddleMan), or try to make more profit by investing yourself into it even further.
__ I think that doing a flush-out of the motorcase (with hot used/gas-contaminated oil, or boiling mineral-spirits), will give you a better idea of whether a case tear-down is really needed.
__ And if you see a lead-seal (showing that the motorcase-seal has never been broken before), then there should be no need to split the cases, (unless the con.rod big-end feels overly sloppy) !
Many are aware of the fact that the otherwise virgin areas within the motor-case are considered to have become tainted (by others), if the casing-seal has been removed, and so will boast the (positive sales)- point, if the lead-seal is still intact. _ This is the mentality of picky-buyers, and is not really unfounded ! - (So now you ought better understand the point I was intending... As pickier-buyers must be willing to pay more for that which matters more to THEM.)


" I figured that just as with any other bike,
a clean and freely moving engine and gears would be a plus to any buyer!"

____ Well that depends... I suppose that if you were going to definitely sell to the type of buyer who's not really an established Duker type & who doesn't know how to do his own project-work, then your poking-around efforts would probably be of some value to such a buyer. _ But this type of buyer, who can also reason paying the price which these wonderous pieces of work can bring, is likely going to be a stroke-of-luck to find.
But I'm fairly sure that most 'Dukers' would prefer to not get stuck with Duke-parts which have been in the relatively poor care of typically uncaring non-Dukers ! _ (Just for one example,, Duke crankshafts & camshafts sold by eBay-sellers who've torn-down Duke-motors just for the purpose of selling the parts, most often damage their Left-hand threads, & destroy the rare nuts !)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

erokson,
What's to say that you're not already a "duker", you've got the duker prize! I'd say anyone that reads this thread wishes for the experience of your find.
What's the criteria of a duker, anyway? We either own, ride or work on what we love, but how many of us get to start out with the trophy bike that you've been
blessed with? Plus, to be so financially on top of it, (think what it'll be worth in another 10 or 20 years). The story of how you came to own this bike is of enough personal value
to warrant keeping it. Sure, you're on the learning curve, but there are enough rescources out there, including the website your on to assist with restoration,or whatever. I feel sure any member of this blog would be glad to share knowlege. Not all of us do all the work on these bikes ourselves, there are "professionals" out there to help with the work. The bike could even be preserved as is and put away until you feel confident to finish the job.
You'll do what you need to ,
You are already Ducatista! I say benvenuta...cominciamo!