six coil alternator in a narrow case 250

[jbcollier]

35w headlight and a Lucas Rita system and the 12v battery charges at 2500 rpm.

[ecurbruce]

Regarding the specs for comparing light outputs...

Zenon- 3200 lumens @ 4300 degrees kelvin
Halogen- 1000 lumens @ 3200 degrees kelvin

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Regarding the specs for comparing light outputs... "

____ WOW, I had no idea that the Zenon lights were 320% brighter ! _ That's quite amazing for only an amp more consumption !
Seems like they ought to make a weaker version that would draw only 3.5-amps yet still be twice as bright as the Q.halogen light-bulb.
__ I wonder what your headlamp (which holds the zenon-bulb) looks like ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

35w headlight and a Lucas Rita system and the 12v battery charges at 2500 rpm.

____ All that alt.modification-work and you only run just a 35-watt headlight !?
I believe I've heard that the old Lucas electronic ign.systems draw an excess amount of power-juice... Do you know how much yours does?
__ That your battery begins charging at only 2500-RPM is pretty-good but, that shouldn't be needed unless you're intentionally set up to run lights within down-town type riding most of the time ! _ If you were running with a no-battery type system, then the need for such strong low-rev power-output from your alternator would be in due order ! _ But with a battery assisted system, any need for high-current by your electrical-system can be supplied by the battery (rather than the alternator itself), cuz in normal varied RPM riding, the battery is there to store (at least some of) the excess power-juice which the alternator produces during the higher RPM riding.
So in other words, with the battery storing the unneeded power-juice during higher-RPM,, either you don't really need such strong lower-RPM alt.power-output, or you should be able to run with stronger lighting than just 35-watts, (proving that you don't lug your engine under 3k-RPM ALL the time).
____ I was hoping you'd have some amp / voltage figures which may support any benefit for your conversion to the thicker-gauge alt.windings. _ Without such before & after power-figures to compare, I'm left inclined to reason that the original alt.winding gauge would've been more suitable for a 12v.system (than your chosen thicker-gauge). _ So I'd assume that the thicker gauge was chosen for the consideration of possibly still being used for running with a 6v.system then ?


Curious-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

RE: "I wonder what your headlamp (which holds the zenon-bulb) looks like?

here's a couple of pic's of headlamp, hope it shows what you're interested in seeing?
I can't really tell you how this is built, it's just kinda tinkered together. I have access to a lot of automotive bits & pieces.
Does the name Macguiver mean anything here?

headlamp_assy.JPG

[ecurbruce]

JBCollier, re; "here's what I did",
I like your idea, kinda thought along those lines too. Also was thinking, since there are two series circuits of coils,
Maybe one circuit large winding, and one circuit small winding. Maybe it would give a combination of
high viltage at low rpm and high amperage at high rpm? What do you think, Bob?

[MotoMike]

Not sure how the wiring is done when adding the other two coils, but guess they are all in series. I think that schematicaly your original wiring is two coils in series with the yellow wires on each end with a red wire at the center tap. It seems a popular method to go to 12 volts is to eliminate the center tap and take 12 volts across both coils by taking your outut from only the yellow wires. This is because voltage in series is additive. Current in series is common however, so with no switching between your proposed small wire and large wire coils you would have no way of taking your desired low or high speed output. each would produce what it does at a given rpm in voltage and add it to the other. The load will determine how much current it will draw for a given voltage until it reaches the limit the smallest wire can handle. after that it will melt the wire (assuming it is not fuse protected) and before long open and produce zero. A better plan , I think, would be to use the same size wire throughout so that all wire can handle the same current.

I like JB's set up and as Bob mentioned, would like to see some numbers. Since he is using less turns, but more coils he ends up at near the same output, but it should be a much more hearty alternator. I am guessing he can play with the coil turn numbers to produce desired voltage out.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: ecurbruce...
" since there are two series circuits of coils,
Maybe one circuit large winding, and one circuit small winding. Maybe it would give a combination of high viltage at low rpm and high amperage at high rpm?
What do you think, Bob? "

____ While I've already touched on this logical notion previously, for the 4-pole alt.stator set-ups, I'm glad that you've brought-up this line-of-reasoning for these 6-pole alt.stators ! ...
__ With intentions of being used on a hybrid 12v electrical-system, I had always wanted to rewind the 4-coil/6-pole stator with two new windings, one winding-circuit with the next size thinner (than the stock gauge), and the other winding with the next size thicker than stock. _ But unfortunately I never got around to that alt.project because, for one thing, I had heard of (other/similar) discouraging results (of alt.rewinding), which seemed to not exactly correlate expectedly well with established coil-winding theory...
I had hopefully-expected that the increased number of coil-loops -(called 'turns') of the thinner winding-circuit would produce higher voltage (than that of stock) during lower RPMs, for better expected charging of a 12v-battery at low revs,, while the thicker (although reduced number of turns) winding-circuit would be brought-on-line (when lights are turned-on) for improved alt.power assistance for powering-up the (much higher amperage) lighting-load, (during higher RPMs, as the battery would of course still have to carry the bulk of that additional load during low RPMs). _ However I was then lead to consider that the difference (compared to stock-gauge windings), would not be worth all the trouble of the added complexity of two different winding-gauges on the same stator-core. _ So I played with thoughts of a number of differing winding-patterns, and never did make a firm choice, thus never got anything done with one.
And so I've ever since been left wondering whether there's indeed any measurable difference attributable to varying gauge of alt.coil-windings, that's really applicable to Ducati-type alt.stators, for their particular intended use.
__ I had intended to keep the two separate alt.circuits completely isolated, for two completely separate charging-system circuits on my intended 12-volt Duke-project.
And for my very-own projects, I'd NEVER consider combining the two (otherwise separate) alt.winding-circuits in 'series', as doing so has no real alternate advantage within a normal battery-system ! _ (As there would be only limited & fairly useless advantage from such series-combination.)


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: MotoMike..."
" Not sure how the wiring is done when adding the other two coils, but guess they are all in series. "

____ Well no matter which of those two modified 6-pole alt.stators you're actually in reference-to, I'm reasonably sure that it's fair to assume that BOTH fellows got their added pair of matching stator-coils wired-up (with the original four winding-coils) in identical stock-like conection-fashion, (so-thus all correctly phased), and-thus also connected in the expected series-arrangement along-with that of the original four stator-coils.
But if NOT, then they OUGHT-to have mentioned how ELSE either had chosen to connect-up their extra/added winding-coils to their-own alt.stators !


" I think that schematicaly your original wiring is two coils in series with the yellow wires on each end with a red wire at the center tap. "

____ To clarify what I believe Mike is meaning to declare here-above, is that Bruce's original -(most recent) wiring-plan can be viewed as two separate (6 coil) alt.stator-windings connected-together in series (EACH with their very-own yellow-colored wire-lead connected at their oppossed-ends), and-also with their original common ground-connection instead diverted to just a single/red wire-lead (which may then be considered as being same as a 'center-tap').
__ That particular arrangement confirmed, I wish to further clarify that the added red wire-lead OUGHT-NOT be referred-to & thought-of as a TRUE 'Center-Tap' ! - As it's REALLY rather a 'Common' actually, (meaning that it simply offers a common-pathway for conducting the current-flows of separate circuits [much like a 'Ground' does] ).


" It seems a popular method to go to 12 volts is to eliminate the center tap and take 12 volts across both coils by taking your outut from only the yellow wires. This is because voltage in series is additive. "

____ It's indeed "popular" (for those with a mere BASIC-understanding) to make that simple altered circuit-connection ! _ And-also it's certainly true that 'voltage' is indeed "additive" when connected in 'series', however many assume (WRONGLY !) that both of the alt.stator-windings each produce 6-volts and-so thus reason that connecting them in series will then naturally add-up to 12-volts total, (for simply converting from a 6-volt to a 12-volt electrical-system). _ BUT that's actually BAD-logic (in the case of alternator-output) ! _ Cuz for one-thing, the alt.windings really do-NOT produce those particular voltages ! _ As the available voltage-tension is actually either lower or higher (than those potential-voltages), the of the time !
And also, alternators don't actually produce ANY particular amount of 'Voltage' (until circuited), but rather merely produce raw 'Power' ! _ And-also, 'alt.power' also includes 'Tension' -(which can possibly be measured as 'voltage', and can also be considered as 'Potential' -[the 'short-term' for 'potential-voltage'] ).
So because alternators don't really produce raw-voltage, but rather mere power,, there's thus-then actually no separate voltages in existance to be added-up together (by connecting the two alt.windings in series) ! ...
However, the available 'power' (which can be converted-into voltage & current), of both alt.windings CAN be combined-together in 'series' OR 'parallel' ! _ As the resulted voltage-output from the circuited alt.power will turn-out the SAME either way ! _ Because 'power' is 'additive' in EITHER 'series' or 'parallel' , (and-cuz the 'voltage' is resulted AFTER 'power' has been circuited [into current & voltage]) !
So-therefore, the common-reasoning that 6v 'plus' 6v is REQUIRED in-order to achieve 12v (from the alt.stator-windings),, is NOT true, concerning the alternator-output ! _ As those same (possible) resulting voltages can also be obtained at-least as well with the alt.winding-output arrangement being arranged 'side-by-side' -(in parallel), (rather than connected 'butt-to-head' -[in series]) !


" The load will determine how much current it will draw for a given voltage until it reaches the limit the smallest wire can handle. after that it will melt the wire
and before long open and produce zero. "

____ This is fairly valid reasoning IF the alternator could ever produce enough amperage to overheat the thinnest wire in the circuit-chain, which likely still wouldn't happen unless the 'load' was a near direct short-circuit.
__ The point I think Mike most intended to make is that if the thin-gauge alt.winding is connected in 'series' with the heavier gauge winding, then any gain in higher amperage-handling which the thicker winding could provide, would still be limited by that which the thinner-winding can possibly handle, thus defeating any otherwise possible current-flow advantage (with one of the two circuit-windings having a heavier gauge).
So with that logic now understood by all,, I-myself, had rather assumed that Bruce more-likely had reasonably meant for the-thin & the-thick gauged windings to be kept arranged in PARALLEL-fashon, so that their individual benefits could both thus-then each be taken advantage-of independantly. _ (Which is a reasonably sensible idea which I-myself have also once considered trying-out !)
__ Anyhow, even if the two alt.stator-windings are both kept the very-same gauge, there's actually very little worthwhile reason for combining them both in series-fashion, for working with a battery-storage type system, (since a battery [with it's somewhat strange effects] tends to even-out the playing-field [so to speak]) !


" I like JB's set up
Since he is using less turns, but more coils he ends up at near the same output, but it should be a much more hearty alternator. "

____ Okay,, it's understood that his modified 6-pole alt.stator now has an extra/added pair of alt.winding-coils (on the otherwise empty pair of stator-cores), for the alt.stator-windings to be extended on-to,, however his chosen larger gauge for the windings thusly means that the resulted total number of coil-loops/turns is not correspondingly greater than that of the stock 4-coil alt.stator,, thus his new potential-voltage output still remains about the same, while the alt.stator-windings are now capable of handling increased amperage.
__ I certainly agree that his alternator is now significantly more robust ! _ And I'd even consider it's new-specs to possibly be actually necessary if intended to run a 4-volt system (or, without any storage-battery). _ But otherwise, there ought be no useful reason for the heavier gauge alt.windings when used with an electrical-system that doesn't have a greater total-load than stock.


" I am guessing he can play with the coil turn numbers to produce desired voltage out. "

____ Perhaps so,, but whatever that voltage, it's only at some particular/narrow RPM-range. _ And besides, once blended/pooled with the battery's storage-pool of electrcal-juice, any alt.outputted voltage-amount then becomes absorbed & averagd-out with that of the battery's voltage.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
DCT-Bob

[ecurbruce]

To clarify, I never intended to express that all coils would be wired in series, rather that there are two series circuits to work with. I feel for the same reasons, there is not much advantage to the center tap wiring version with two wire sizes.
I wonder though, with one set of coils of large wire, one set of coils of small wire, isolated from eachother, exit the alternator separtely, each of the four wires run through a diode, then each circuit conected to a regulator/rectifier in parallel and out of phase. (My plan always has a regulator) The small wire circuit would charge at low rpm, the large wire circuit would then kick in at higher rpm. Is this sound reasoning, or am I way off base?