Identification Help-My 1965 Mark 3 Diana'ish Find

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Unfortunately any paperwork on this bike is long gone, "

____ It would be worth the detective-work to go-out & track-down the paper-work ! _ The past owner still holding it would probably be glad to look for it with a 20 dollar-bill as incentive, and if it had to be gotten from the state, then a 50 should suffice,, and even if you had to double those amounts, I still think it's worth it.


" the carb, the engine side cases and almost all of the engine bolts, the piston, the timing cover, the rearsets (pegs, linkage, and shifter), the kickstarter, "

____ I have all those parts spare, and it wouldn't take much more than 500 to part me from them !


" I just went through the full list of all the parts it needs just to be a runner and with just the 1/2 of it I could actually find on ebay in current or completed auctions I figure I'd be closing in on $2000! "

____ That's way too high ! _ Hang-in there, and you'll eventually find the better eBay deals !
Another (most always cheaper) place to find stuff of the sort, is 'eBid.net',, have you searched there as well ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[erockson]

" the carb, the engine side cases and almost all of the engine bolts, the piston, the timing cover, the rearsets (pegs, linkage, and shifter), the kickstarter, "

____ I have all those parts spare, and it wouldn't take much more than 500 to part me from them !

Well that I could make work! You sure you're including the carb in that kinda price? I have everything taken apart and had planned on disassembling the rest of the engine this weekend, so I'll take a full inventory of what is missing and see what you have and would be willing to part with and if it then makes sense to give it a go at getting her running. I'd definitely love to add this to the list of bikes I've been able to bring back to life.

[MotoMike]

In my copy of Falloons standard catalog page 47 is pictured a 65 mark3. He describes the 65 250 Mark 3 as a thinly disguised mk one with magneto ignition. It had rear sets, your tank and the bars shown on your bike. He says that the 66 changed little but in response critisism about the rearsets with the high bars, the 66 had no rearsets. says 66 also put the rear brake light switch down at the pedal as yours is. also included a right side "air scoop" on the front brake plate. Then there is a picturee of the 67 with rear sets and clip ons. He notes that the 67 got the Veglia tach as your's has. In looking at the black and white pictures, it apears that the 64 has a black frame with some other color for the chain gaurd, the 65 frame is some color other than black, red I'm guessing, the 66 is not shown, but the 67 is all black. good luck.

From what I've read, it is unlikely that they followed these rules to the tee. also might be that Falloon didn't get it just right.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" In my copy of Falloons standard catalog "

____ Unfortunately, I don't own any of the DUCATI-books published since the early-90s,
so I don't know if this book makes any point concerning the fact that Duke-models made for the USA have considerable differences than those styled for other countries !?
So since I myself being only first-hand familiar with the model-versions imported into the U.S. (and with only vague memory of cycle-mag.articles show & telling of a few select new-models when first released by Ducati IN Europe, before Berliner could add their influence),
I feel the need to clarify some related points.....


" He describes the 65 250 Mark 3 as a thinly disguised mk one with magneto ignition. It had rear sets, your tank and the bars shown on your bike. "

____ That's all fairly true of the 'USA' version of the Mark-3, being pretty-much the same as a Mach-I (not "mk one") except for it's electrical-system being based around a battery-less power-supply system, (thus the Mk3 ign.system instead made use of a 'magneto-like' energy-transfer ign.system, from a weaker alternator).


" He says that the 66 changed little but in response critisism about the rearsets with the high bars, the 66 had no rearsets. "

____ Since it seems that he's still in reference to only the USA-version, we need to keep in mind that the year when a Duke is constructed by the factory and the 'model-year' of the Duke/bike itself are not always the very same 'YEAR' !


" says 66 also put the rear brake light switch down at the pedal as yours is. "

____ That seems to be an un-useful point, as that was ALWAYS the case (once a stop-switch was added, by 1963)!


" also included a right side "air scoop" on the front brake plate. "

____ Right at this moment I'm not positive of exactly when, but I believe that it was by early 1965 that the (fake!) air-scoops were added to ALL Duke-models, (and I'm 'thinking' that those type wheel-covers came-out along-with the 5-speed models in late 1963).
So that point is another un-useful one concerning any 1966-model.


" Then there is a picturee of the 67 with rear sets and clip ons. "

____ I think it would be very-nice of Tom B. if he would step-forth and straighten-out anything that he KNOWs to be certainly true concerning these models which he seems quite knowledgeable about ! _ But I-myself am doubting that any TRUE '1967' Mark-3s ever got imported into the U.S., especially with those mentioned rider-parts.
I think many '65s got sold in 1966, and many '66s got sold after 1966, (until the WideCase Mark-3 models became available by late summer 1968).


" He notes that the 67 got the Veglia tach as your's has. "

____ Still another un-useful point ! - As ALL n-c Mk3s came with that same tach.model !


" In looking at the black and white pictures, it apears that the 64 has a black frame with some other color for the chain gaurd, "

____ I don't recall ever seeing anything other than black & black.


" the 65 frame is some color other than black, red I'm guessing, "

____ Again, I only recall just-black for Mk3s, (never got to see any M1s).


" the 67 is all black. "

____ As is consistent with those made in/for 1966.


" From what I've read, it is unlikely that they followed these rules to the tee. "

____ I always thought that the factory at least tried to, but possibly during production-run switch-overs, some part changes didn't all happen all-at-once.


" also might be that Falloon didn't get it just right. "

____ Probably true of any one-soul trying to write detailed books on old DUKEs.


____ Thanks for the stepping-stone post Mike !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[erockson]

Thanks again for the help identifying this bike. I had another question regarding the identification of the cylinder head. When I first started researching I remember coming across something saying there were 2 different heads that could be identified by whether or not you could see through the head just under the cam shaft, or if the head was solid? I can't find that information again no matter how much I try and I'm not sure if it's something that could be very important or just a simple no big deal thing.

My head is open:





Also while taking everything apart to clean and inspect found this on the rims:



Following a few current ebay auctions for the carb, case covers, etc. to see if it still might be in my reach to get this back up and running at least.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I had another question regarding the identification of the cylinder head. When I first started researching I remember coming across something saying there were 2 different heads that could be identified by whether or not you could see through the head just under the cam shaft, or if the head was solid? "

____ I've never heard of any such tale ! _ Although I've seen SCR-heads pretty-much plugged-up with dirt inside that area (making it look like it's solid, instead of finned). _ Perhaps such may be actually true of old 175-heads, I suppose (as I've never had one of those to look-over).
____ Your cly.head could be identified by it's 29.5mm intake-port/mouth.
(Other 250-model heads have either 28.5mm or 26.5mm inlets.)


" I can't find that information again no matter how much I try and I'm not sure if it's something that could be very important or just a simple no big deal thing. "

____ When you do learn where you heard such tale, please let us know. _ But I really doubt that such info is of any real help.


" Following a few current ebay auctions for the carb, case covers, etc. to see if it still might be in my reach to get this back up and running at least. "

____ You don't need to pay the high-prices for a stock-type carb, just to get it running...
I suggest that you instead get a (good usable) Amal 27mm to 30mm carb from a 500 or 650 Brit-twin, which will bolt straight-on & run without much ado. _ Ya can get such carbs on eBay for 25 to 100-bucks, (usually at least 75% cheaper).


____ I see that you've removed the camshaft's bearing-support... I hope you didn't butcher-it-up any in the process, like so many other non-DUCATI mechanics often do !
__ If you can get & post a well lite picture of the cam (even more visible, within the exposed tunnel), I could then confirm that that cyl.head has the proper camshaft for the model of the Duke.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[erockson]

When I first did my research and found what little info I could myself (before joining this forum) I remember reading something about some heads being filled in between those fins and some being open... but like I said I can't for the life of me find that info again and I've racked my brain for all the different google searches I could think of. Sounds like from your expertise it isn't anything valid anyways!

Here is a picture of the cam:


And here are the valves:


I was indeed careful with the cover and didn't pry it off like a newbie! Now if I can just get the camshaft out and the flywheel off... anyone know of non-Ducati specific tools and/or backyard mechanic ways that work for those, or if not anyone have those tools or know of a shop that does in the Southern CA area?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I remember reading something about some heads being filled in between those fins and some being open... "

____ Even if there were ever such a head that I'm unaware of, it doesn't make very good sense for a head to be kept solid through that space.
__ Perhaps fellow-member Eldert has once noted any such head, (have you ever Eldert?).


" Here is a picture of the cam: "

____ It's not real easy to tell an original Mk3-cam apart from a Mach-I version (without seeing them both side-by-side), but that cam does appear to be the expected Mach-I type, (and certainly not a common Monza or Scrambler type cam) !


" And here are the valves: "

____ To match the cam-model, they should be 40 & 36mm, (whereas the common models use 36 & 33mm valve-sizes) !
__ Looks like the original sparkplug-threads have been replaced !?


" Now if I can just get the camshaft out and the flywheel off... "

____ What for exactly, going to part-it-out ?
__ The cam can be held in place with a block of wood, but keep in mind that the cam-nut is LEFT-hand threaded !


" anyone know of non-Ducati specific tools and/or backyard mechanic ways that work for those, " or if not anyone have those tools "

____ There are sellers on eBay who sell the related special-tools.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[erockson]

I had not noticed the spark plug threads, but wasn't really looking before now and honestly have never seen nor had to get a heli-coil, but it does seem that might be the case?

Maybe I was mistaken and what I read was that there were heads that didn't have the fins on top that went all the way through?

Like this head the fins go all the way across:

Whereas mine is smooth in the middle and finned on the edge:

Also not sure if it matters but there is a small "R" stamped on both the top and the bottom of the head?

The engine came with no valves installed as well as the missing piston (which I believe would have helped further identify). In breaking it down I did find 1 lone valve in the toolbox. It measures at 36mm and fits best in the intake, it seems to fit a tad bit high in the exhaust and I think a 40mm would fit way too high in the intake. So it seems it's a 36/33mm head and the story of this mismatched bike continues.....

According to a few others on other sites those m-baruzzo torino wheels are really hard to find and were only used for a few years on the Mach1 and Mark3's, and the butted spokes are correct for just the Mark3's. According to http://www.coolitalianbikes.com's latest update which was specific to the wheels: "These Diana's featured chromed steel rims by M. Baruzzo, which are really hard to find, since they were not used on too many bikes. They are very narrow, 1.6 inch wide for 2.00-2.50 tires... The Diana 250 spokes are the "high performance" variety, 3.5mm at the ends and 3.0mm in the center of the shaft."

I'm still quite unsure as to what my final decision will end up being as to what to do with this bike, but either way I figure it needs to be taken down to parts so that everything can be soaked and cleaned to get rid of the rust and grime and put back in properly lubed.

[Bevel bob]

In the UK i would definately restore the bike to a Mach 1 spec, as this is the most sought after and valuable model, most of the difficult parts are now being remade, however the Mark 3 is the well known model in the US and I have period road tests showing raised bars ,black frame etc, so the choise is there, the M1 motor and M3 are to the same spec appart from generator and AAU is often to suit a battery-less system in the US.For ease of riding and starting I prefer the battery system.