Silver Shotgun wiring harness?

[hititfaster]

Ya can load pictures properly by using the supplied/intended method found near the bottom of your intended posting-page

I found that a bit frustrating - even a reasonably small image seemed to be too big for it, and multiple uploads aren't catered for. I'll just use Photobucket and add in the code.

You should have the same stock set-up which CaptPaul has had on his 200

I'll be searching for that and having a read as soon as I'm done posting this...

YOUR intended riding-style will not be the same (less demanding type) as the more common type of riding which most DUKEs are used for

I just want the bike to be usable: in general I can't stand flakey stuff that doesn't work properly! I've had classic and custom cars and I see no reason why, with a bit of thought, they can't be completely reliable and usable. OK, they may need more attention than a brand new Audi, for example, but you know what I mean. My daily driver is a mk1 VW Caddy (Rabbit to you guys in the US!) with a 2 litre mk3 Golf Gti engine. Everything on it is custom or modified and it runs like a beaut. Went all the way to the Nurburgring, did a lap and came home again pretty much issue free! It can be done!

I'm going to do some research into electrical systems and get back to you with what I find out. The bike as it stands didn't really cost me very much, so I plan to spend a bit of money on the engine and the parts that make it all work. Frame, tank, seat, steering... all the big mechanical parts (that aren't the engine) I can easily do without too much expenditure, so I'll invest where it counts.

I've taken a few more detail shots of the various components I have (see below). In the case of the headlight, the previous pic showed basically everything there was to show internally (wire colours, positions and the various components) and I've now stripped it, so can't offer any better than that. There are some other components, but they're all separate from the bowl now, and they're all generic anyway, so have omitted them as well. The lights on the headlight bowl are 1 x red and 1 x green. Ignition barrel is still present: can you get/make keys for these? In the photo's I've seen of them they don't look overly complicated!

[Jon Pegler]

Whilst I'm sure not everyone would agree, I think I would be inclined to junk the old generator and fit a modern one.
If you intend to fit indicators and use the lights quite a bit, the older Ducati generators will struggle to cope, particularly at low revs.
Nigel lacey and Barry Jones both stock Electrex alternator and regulator units here in the UK.
I've fitted a few of these systems with excellent results.

Jon.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: Jordan...
" Have you ever done this? "

____ Well Jordan, the very-first alternator-modification I ever completed was on this early Monza-type twin-coil alt.stator...
It was on a 1962 250-Monza (which uses the same kind of power-coils as the later 200s). _ After I had already examined the internals of the Monza's heavy black-box (& so-called "regulator"), I soon thereafter made it my goal to look-over the alternator's stator,, and when I did, I then came to fully realize that Ducati was definately only making use of just HALF of the available power that it's two separate power-coils are able to offer. _ That's because each of the two power-coil's windings have one of their lead-ends grounded to the stator-plate, and the stock black-box is therefore only set up to HALF-wave rectify the outputs of the two power-coils (with it's single pair of power-diodes).
__ Then realizing that I could un-ground the two alt.winding's lead-ends from the stator-plate and instead connect them together (and isolate from ground), I could then FULL-wave rectify the combined-outputs of the two power-coils (wired in series) and thus DOUBLE the total power-output of the otherwise stock alt.charging-system, while at the very same time ALSO* increase system-voltage & easily run a 12-volt system !! _ (*I realize that it SEEMS unlikely that BOTH 'voltage' AND 'power' can both be "doubled" at the same time, but please keep in mind that connecting the pair of power-coil windings in 'series' [instead of parallel, as stock], accounts for doubling the alternator's output-voltage [but not total-power!],, and that the 'full-wave' rectifying [instead of just 'half-wave', as stock], accounts for doubling the power-juice from the alternator !!)
I completed that (relatively simple) 12v.conversion/modification on two Monzas I owned, and also on a couple of my customers Monzas.
__ The outcome was not completely without side-effects however...
Riding at higher RPMs with lights turned-off, for over an hour was pretty-hard on the battery and if done on a daily basis, the battery's water-level would need to be topped-off at least once a week, (otherwise battery-life became a costly issue).
I of course came to realize that this particular alt.modification requires a worthy voltage-regulator and had to come-up with more complicated wiring-work, (to go along with the two pairs of diodes which I had to use for obtaining the full-wave rectification).
__ Because of this particular (only 2-wire alt.modification, with full-wave rectification) charging-system's shortcomings, I abandoned this simpleton's method by the early '70s !
However, for a 200/250-Duke that keeps lights turned-on all the time while RPMs are kept low, this simplest of (12v) charging-system set-ups is a necessity !


" Which model Ducatis does it apply to? "

____ Concerning the 200-models, I think of them in three main-productions...
The first 200s had the early-motor with the electrical-system of the 175 (with CEV-alternator); next came the 200s with the early-motor and Ducati's own (simpler) electrical-system; and 3rd was the 200s with the later-motor and Ducati's electrical-system (like the early 250-Monza's).
__ Those later 200-models (as well as the early-type -[4-speed] 250-Monzas) which came stock with Ducati's own twin power-coil 4-pole '40-watt' alternator, plus the later-type -(n-c 5-speed) 250-Monza/M1/GTs & 350-Sebring models which came stock with Ducati's twin-winding/4-coil 6-pole '60-watt' alternator,, all have alt.stators with their two coil-windings grounded to their stator-plate ! _ And thus can be likewise modified in the same manor (as mentioned above).


" Includes the widecase singles? "

____ Yes & No...
__ The "No" part... The WideCase's 2-winding/6-coil 6-pole '70-watt' alternator doesn't really need it's stator to be modified, since none of it's coil-winding's lead-ends are grounded (internally).
__ The "Yes" part... The w-c charging-system also merely HALF-wave rectifies it's two alt.windings as well, (as all old 'Ducati' systems have done!),, and since the stock w-c alt.wire-lead wiring already provides the circuit(s) needed for FULL-wave rectification, it's thus rather easy to get twice the alt.power-output (of stock), for either 6v or 12v electrical-systems.
But I do not recommend wiring-up such a simpleton charging-system.


" But if it's an easy matter to rejig the existing charging coil wiring to provide more turns of wire in the coils and consequently more induced voltage, I'm very interested. "

____ Jordan, I get the notion that, (like many other newcomers to this w.site), perhaps you haven't yet combed-through most of the threads in this section. _ But if you have, you should've then found at least a few other threads which already cover this topic-area and probably most of your interests concerning this field, (as well as many others) !
So please let me know exactly which alternator-system you most desire more of this kind of information on, and I'll then help you find it.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[grapes]

Hititfaster;

The flywheel-rotor you show is from a 1966 scrambler 31.20,95 28 watt. this is right out of the factory master parts manual
Capt Paul

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: hititfaster...
" I found that a bit frustrating - even a reasonably small image seemed to be too big for it, and multiple uploads aren't catered for. "

____ I understand what you mean, I didn't expect you to have so many pix to place in your post.


"

YOUR intended riding-style will not be the same (less demanding type) as the more common type of riding which most DUKEs are used for

I just want the bike to be usable: in general I can't stand flakey stuff that doesn't work properly! "

____ What I had meant to convey (in my quoted sentence), is that it seems you've made it clear that your intended riding will not be mostly above 35-MPH & outside of the city (like most DUKE-riders prefer), and thus will be considerably more demanding on your DUKE's charging-system.
__ The stock Ducati electrical-system has been given, (but not exactly deserved to have earned), a bum-rap for having a poor reputation amongst those who don't really understand what they should, about it. ...
A DUCATI that hasn't been used & abused will still have it's stock systems working just as well as the day it was first purchased in the '60s.


" I'm going to do some research into electrical systems and get back to you with what I find out. "

____ Sure-thing, that's for the best.
And from what I've read within your posts, you seem to be a prime-example of someone who ought to consider an updated/after-market charging-system such as the system that Jon Pegler has referred to.
But if you agree that such systems are fairly over-priced, then you should learn of what your mentioned friend could do for your alternator. _ Because for one-thing, CaptPaul is right, and your alternator-model is not any of the stock 200-model alternators ! _ It seems to be a '28-watt' model, and that particular alt.model would not be very suitable for your intended needs.
__ It may look as if that alt.stator could be modified the same as the 200's stock 'twin' power-coil stator, but I've never tried that with the '28-watt' alt.model's stator,, and with those two dissimilar coil-windings connected in series, one coil may overheat or one may be somewhat choked by the other, plus, I don't know if their windings are mounted so as to be out-of-phase (like the twin-coils are).


" I've taken a few more detail shots of the various components I have "

____ I've down-loaded all 12 pix and looked them over, and I can now confer with you about some things...
__ Very little of the wiring is stock and somebody has replaced much of it !
Did the person you got your 200-Duke from offer any knowledge about it's non-original electrical-system?
__ Did you remove the alternator from the motor yourself, or was it given to you along with the rest of the Duke (as a basket-case)?
I'm thinking that somewhere along-the-line, someone knew that (old) 200-models had alternators with the three wire-leads (colored Red; White; Yellow,, as on the old CEV-units), and perhaps (mistakenly) assumed that they had found a new/NOS example of the correct alt.model for the 200,, whereas actually, it seems you have the alt.model most used on 160-MonzaJr models.
__ Assuming that that's likely the case, it would be a bit of a shame to alter what may probably be a newer replacement-part, as there's no doubt someone who'd like to have that particular alt.model, (which is a pretty-neat work of wiring for it's intended purpose, [but not yours, as it is] ).
You can check to see if it's from an old/used pre-1969 Duke, or a newer replacement-part by looking-over the wiring...
If the White-wire is bright in color and seems quite pliable, then it's rather new,, but if that wire rather looks dirty-yellow and seems as if it'll crack if sharply bent, then it's very-old and should be replaced anyhow.
__ If you have an ohm-meter, then you could use it to comfirm the alt.stator-model.


" Ignition barrel is still present: can you get/make keys for these? "

____ Considering your intentions for your Duke, I'd recommend installing a new & better key-switch !

____ I'll re-post (below) a couple of your pictures which are of most interest, so for one thing, we can then compare the difference between pic.posting methods.

____ Hope to soon learn what you're thinking next !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: Jon Pegler ...
" If you intend to fit indicators and use the lights quite a bit, the older Ducati generators will struggle to cope, particularly at low revs. "

____ If by "indicators" we're actually meaning to refer to 'turn-signal lights', then
(while I realize that Jon is pretty knowledgeable), unless they are left blinking constantly, I have to disagree with Jon's statement (as worded)...
Cuz like brake-lights & horn, those added lights are not dependent (directly) on the alternator's power, but rather on the battery's power ! _ And the battery will adequately power those lights regardless of "low-revs".
__ What I think he must have actually meant is that the stock 'charging-system' won't cope well with the added load whenever the battery becomes low on charge after extended low-RPM riding with lights left turned-on.
__ There's two (easy) ways to help prevent such occurrence ...
Make sure to employ the largest battery possible and/or use the new LED-type light-bulbs, (currently produced for signal-lights), which use relatively next to nothing to be powered-up !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Jordan]

____ Jordan, I get the notion that, (like many other newcomers to this w.site), perhaps you haven't yet combed-through most of the threads in this section.

That's right, and I shouldn't bore everyone by repeating recently covered questions. Thanks for the interesting replies.
I have a widecase single, which alternator is complicated in having a high voltage coil on one of its 6 stator legs, for electronic ignition (Ducati type, not Motoplat).

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I have a widecase single, which alternator is complicated in having a high voltage coil on one of its 6 stator legs, for electronic ignition (Ducati type, not Motoplat). "

____ I assume then that you have a 1974 450 !? _ If not, you then must have an unusual/modified WideCase,, and if so, it would then certainly be of enough interest to tell us about it, within it's own new thread.
____ Since it's a wide-case model you have, you then ought to find the thread topic-titled "Various Alternate Charging-Systems for W-C Alternators", of special interest to read.
That thread can currently be found near the middle of page-2 of these topic-pages.
__ I hope you find something to question about, from within any of the posts found within that thread.


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

____ I believe that our fellow list-member 'wcorey', has found a Suzuki-rotor (with 12 magnets) that's the same size as a stock 6-magnet DUKE-rotor...

__ Hopefully wcorey will soon be able get around to telling us more details here about the results he got with his 12-magnet rotor that he found which properly fit over a 6-pole Ducati-stator.

Bob,
Sorry I haven't done any followup on that. I just have too many projects going, I get sidetracked very easily, must be ADD... Somehow I had missed your last post on the subject that has many good comments and questions, I think you must have edited more in after I had initially read it and I assumed it was completed, silly me...

I have done some more testing and have a ton of info/data and have actually started a writeup for it's own thread but would like to hold off until I finish at least the basic stuff. It just keeps snowballing, I've been doing some thermal testing with unexpected, confusing results and also started the input load testing.

I can tell you that the drive motor(1/2hp) uses about 400 watts unloaded, about another 60 with the no-load n-c 6 pole/4 coil alternator and about another 60 running a 55 watt headlight load at 10.8 volt output(3450 rpm).

The n-c alternator runs very cool compared to the newer ones, obviously due in part to it's much lower output but the numbers seem disproportional. That alone could be a 'deal breaker' for the whole damn project, need to do much more work there...

I've been going a bit overboard as I presently have a ZX14 350 watt 3 phase (15 coil, 20 magnets, figure that one out...) with mosfet regulator that has been fitted into the 450 motor and also up and running on the bench. Offroad 'weed-killer' lights and heated gear, anyone?

As for the 12 magnet Suzuki/Kawasaki rotors that fit with the 93mm Ducati singles stators, I had no luck getting any cross combination to work, rotor to stator or stator to rotor, just zero output. I think mostly I covered that in the previous thread.
For whatever reason the single phase Kawi alternator with 12 coils/12 magnets will work in any combination with the 3 phase 18 coil/12 magnet Suzuki/Kawai stuff. I don't spend too much time trying to figure out why, it's easier to just figure out what works or doesn't.
And for anyone reading this who hasn't seen the info in the other thread, Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators, none of this is a 'bolt on' solution but requires some machining to adapt.

PS,
As a consolation, I'll post some info I've accumulated on using HEI ignition modules and getting additional advance out of the stock advance units. Just because I dropped the ball on the alternator project doesn't mean I haven't been busy...

Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Bob,
Sorry I haven't done any followup on that. "

____ That's okay Bill,
it's good to know that you're still around keeping an eye on what's going-on around here !
__ I may have let the info you had posted before get a bit foggy in my head...
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but amongst much other stuff, I thought you had found a Suzuki-rotor (with 12-magnets, and of course with an incompatible crank-taper), which just happened to have the same InnerDiameter as a Ducati 6-pole alt.rotor. _ If this is correct, and you have gotten-around to make it rotate/work physically along with the Ducati-stator, then I can't understand why you'd not get any output from that ('shotgun-wedded') pair.
Could you please (sometime) post a picture of that Suzuki-rotor showing it's inner-side with it's 12-magnets ?


" Somehow I had missed your last post on the subject that has many good comments and questions, I think you must have edited more in after I had initially read it and I assumed it was completed, "

____ Yes I recall going-back to my post there to get it finished-up, and wondered if you had ever noticed...
__ I very often don't have the time to fully-complete an intended post that I've started, and come-back (usually by a day later) to finish adding whatever thoughts I hadn't yet included, (as well as fix-up/edit any less than most-accurate wording).
That unfortunate circumstance occurring often enough, that I had added an even higher profile (than I originally had had), message at the bottom of all my posts, declaring that such may likely be the case.
__ Anyhow, I'm sure you must've read my post back before I had finished it.


" I can tell you that the drive motor(1/2hp) uses about 400 watts unloaded, about another 60 with the no-load n-c 6 pole/4 coil alternator and about another 60 running a 55 watt headlight load at 10.8 volt output(3450 rpm). "

____ Are you sure that's all correct ? ...
It makes fair sense that the drive-motor would consume the additional 60-watts while the driven alternator powers the 55-watt light, but it doesn't seem reasonable for the other/initial 60-watts to be consumed merely from spinning the NON-loaded alternator ! - I would guess that the initial -(no-load) loss would be no more than 10-watts, at most. ...
Perhaps the alt.stator you're testing has an internal short-circuit ? _ To check for that possibility, spinning that alternator with absolutely NO load connected at all, should leave all the stator-coils completely ever-so-slightly warm to the touch,, however if ANY of the coil-windings feel notably warmer or hotter, then at least a portion of the coil-windings must have a 'short' between some of it's winding-turns !


" but the numbers seem disproportional. That alone could be a 'deal breaker' "

____ I'm not clear on what you actually mean here.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob