Silver Shotgun wiring harness?

[bamnfi]

Hey thanks Tony and Bob! Brilliant service. Am very impressed.
I am going to compare the schematic to the R/T and see what, if any, differences there are.

Again, grazie!
I will post pics of my 2 x 450's as soon as I figure out how to reduce them. Can we post links here to photobucket and the like?

bam

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: Jordan...
" a permanent magnet generator develops voltage in direct proportion to speed, "

____ I recall back in the '60s the debate between 'generators' & 'alternators' ... that generators made DC without need for rectifiers and were capable of producing plenty of power-juice but, they put-out less juice for 'in-town driving' compared to alternators (which provided more power-juice at lower RPMs where it was more needed), thus alternators eventually won-out over DC-generators !
__ I also believe that generators do indeed produce their power in direct relationship to RPM, (thus produce twice as much power at 3000-RPM than that at 1500-RPM, for example). _ So the alternator must thus do something better than just that rate.


" A friend had a daily runner 250 Monza with a faulty 6V regulator, but he found that bypassing it caused no problems "

____ As on any well balanced system, the regulator rarely has any significant activity other than during extended high-RPMs with lights off.


" It makes me think that just changing batteries might be all that's needed to convert from 6 to 12 volt system. But then, you might not have enough generated voltage to charge it reliably? "

____ Slightly higher RPMs are of course needed to produce charging-current for a 12v.battery (than a for a 6v.battery), however if a 6v.battery starts getting any charging-current at 2000-RPM, it doesn't really require 4000-RPM to start getting any charging-current into a 12v.battery, (as it would seem to stand-to-reason).
There should be next to no concern for keeping a 12v.battery charged (as opposed to a 6v.battery), except for those who expect to do mostly low-RPM city-riding with lights left turned-on at all times. - (Which would be almost as tough for a 6v.system, as well !)


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[machten]

Hi all,

Been lurking for a few months just learning from your posts having been a recent (18 months) entry into singles, but 30+ years in Duc twins. What a fantastic community of information!

____ I recall back in the '60s the debate between 'generators' & 'alternators' ... that generators made DC without need for rectifiers and were capable of producing plenty of power-juice but, they put-out less juice for 'in-town driving' compared to alternators (which provided more power-juice at lower RPMs where it was more needed), thus alternators eventually won-out over DC-generators !
__ I also believe that generators do indeed produce their power in direct relationship to RPM, (thus produce twice as much power at 3000-RPM than that at 1500-RPM, for example). _ So the alternator must thus do somewhat better than that rate.

I think the alternators follow the same laws of physics, but do so more efficiently. The DC Generator has a significant loss of efficiency compared to an alternator due in part to the friction on the commutator and it's inherent inefficiency. I don't recall too many vehicle DC generators capable of producing over 200 Watts - and they were big physical units. Once diodes became cheap, alternators were always going to win.

As I recall my phsyics, they both produce in direct proportion to RPM. More importaantly, they also both produce:

- in proportion to the square of the magnetic field (small change in magnet strength makes a big difference)
- in inverse proportion to the square of the distance from the magnetic field ( once again, a small change makes a big difference)

Kev

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Sorry bam, I somehow missed/overlooked your last-post last-night when I was online here !


" I am going to compare the schematic to the R/T and see what, if any, differences there are. "

____ The 450R/T's electrical system is pretty-much completely different ! _ It's electrical-scheme/diagram would be of no real help for any street/road-model (which employs a battery) !


" Can we post links here to photobucket and the like? "

____ Yes, just highlight what you wish and then drag&drop it to the area of your posting where you'd like to have it placed.
__ It's always nice to see listed pix (which aren't too small -[under 30kb] or too big -[over 600kb]) included within postings ! _ So you ought to also consider adding any you wish, to your posts.


Happy-Cheers,
-Bob

[bamnfi]

Thanks again Bob.

I will take a try at building my own harness. I managed to do that for my 1970 Mini Cooper S so a bike shouldn't be any harder.

Btw, got some pics to work in the gallery. Not the best fotos but at least it worked The Mk. 3 I bought from a guy in Belgium and the Shotgun came from 'just up the road' in Sydney. It's been fun tinkering with them over the Xmas break

[Jordan]

As I recall my phsyics, they both produce in direct proportion to RPM. More importaantly, they also both produce:

- in proportion to the square of the magnetic field (small change in magnet strength makes a big difference)
- in inverse proportion to the square of the distance from the magnetic field ( once again, a small change makes a big difference)

Kev

Sorry, I should have been clearer, in that when I said generator I meant the AC generator aka alternator.
I don't know about induced field generators ("dynamos" with brushes, alternators with slip rings), but permanent magnet types like our Ducatis have will make volts in step with revs.
- Replacing magnets with stronger ones available cheaply nowadays is an interesting idea. The challenge is to devise the mounting system to the flywheel. Who'll be the first to do it?
- Reducing the distance between the rotor and stator would be a risky move on a crankshaft mounted alternator.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" but permanent magnet types like our Ducatis have will make volts in step with revs. "

____ Of course that's accepted as true/fact... And it's likely possible that the figures which I originally obtained were actually directly in line with that, it's just that I really don't recall that actually being the case...
It could be that the very small load that my volt-meter had, had some effect on the meter's lower vs. higher readings in relation to the varying applied voltages forcing current through it, (as is so with light-bulb filaments,, although that really shouldn't happen with any good volt-meter).
My volt-meter should've been correctly calibrated and it did indeed read "house-current" -(home AC.outlet-power) as it was supposed to be.


" Replacing magnets with stronger ones available cheaply nowadays is an interesting idea. "

____ Yes that would be a good idea to try, as magnet-tech. has really improved since CD-players have come into the market !


" The challenge is to devise the mounting system to the flywheel. Who'll be the first to do it?

____ I believe that our fellow list-member 'wcorey', has found a Suzuki-rotor (with 12 magnets) that's the same size as a stock 6-magnet DUKE-rotor...
__ I understand that it's easier to make smaller magnets very powerful for their size, so it could be possible that each of those 12 magnets are as strong as the Ducati's older/larger units. _ So with those 12 magnets rev.passing just as fast as the stock 6 magnets, alt.power-output could be doubled.
__ However, doubled power-output would then miss-balance a stock charging/load-system, so then more powerful lighting and/or a suitable voltage-regulator would be needed !
__ Hopefully wcorey will soon be able get around to telling us more details here about the results he got with his 12-magnet rotor that he found which properly fit over a 6-pole Ducati-stator.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[hititfaster]

Bloody hell, there's a lot to take in here... Apologies for the first pic I added - some of it has been cropped off the RHS so will take some more when I get home and add them instead.

Although I seem to have virtually all the original loom and components, everything I have read seems to indicate a general lack of reliability and poor functionality. PLUS, (I have only just considered this) only the late model Mach 3's came with indicators. As I fully intend to ride this bike on the road, with modern traffic I think indicators are a MUST! Rather than add these into an already dodgy system I think I'm finding more reasons to do it properly from the start, using the original components as much as is sensible, with upgrades where necessary and completely fresh wiring.

On the subject of alternator, I'll add a few more pic's as soon as I get home this afternoon and hopefully we can clarify exactly what I have.

a permanent magnet generator will provide the volts as long as the engine provides the revs, in a direct relationship between speed and voltage

This is going to be an issue. My normal rides are likely to include trips through towns, potentially traffic jams (ok, I know being on a bike I'll cut through the jam where possible, but let's go with the principal!) and there's always a chance that both of these are going to be encountered at night. If I'm out somewhere I don't want to have to plan departure times according to my supply of electricity maybe not being sufficient to get me home! Besides, I think it's very sensible to run with a light on at all times: I think bikers need all the help being seen they can get with some of the myopic and incompetent drivers there are! I'm looking for ultimate reliability in this bike.

some engineering needs to be done to provide higher voltage at lower revs. That could be by rewinding the charging coil, and/or replacing the magnets with stronger ones. Sound expensive?

It sounds possible. I have a friend who specialises in alternator re-winds: he does a lot with old US cars and classics, and is a bit of a walking encyclopedia, so I'll give him a call. Last re-wind I had dome was £40. I think he'd be up for the challenge too!

instead of a mere finned-rectifier, you ought to have the newer heavy/black-box (which regulates charging-current as well), and a "40-watt" twin power-coil alternator with just two (likely Yellow) wire-leads. _ (Although however, since your newer-type 200 is somewhat early into the production of the new 200-motor, you may have one which came stock with the very-previous Ducati [not oldest CEV] charging-system.)

Not sure on that one. I don't think I have a rectifier at all! The project I have is very much a 'bitsa': I have some parts but not others. I think I need to find out exactly what I do have then acquire the necessary parts to accompany them.

I'll leave it there for now, take some more detailed pic's when I get home and we can discuss!

Tom.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" there's a lot to take in here... "

____ Yes Tom, you've touched-on a popular subject and we probably should've moved your topic to it's own thread.


" Apologies for the first pic I added - some of it has been cropped off "

____ Actually, the whole pic is available to see after it has been downloaded to a PC.
Ya can load pictures properly by using the supplied/intended method found near the bottom of your intended posting-page... Just use the 'Edit' feature and go through the intended pic-posting process for Uploading attachments.


" As I fully intend to ride this bike on the road, with modern traffic I think indicators are a MUST! "

____ Turn-signal indicators are no problem to add to an electrical system which includes a battery, as they use power in the same manor as horn & brake-light !


" Rather than add these into an already dodgy system I think I'm finding more reasons to do it properly from the start, using the original components as much as is sensible, with upgrades where necessary and completely fresh wiring. "

____ The stock-system is really not so bad as many would have ya believe, but it's certainly not a bad idea to do as much as possible in an improved way.


" On the subject of alternator, I'll add a few more pic's
and hopefully we can clarify exactly what I have. "

____ You should have the same stock set-up which CaptPaul has had on his 200.
It would be nice if you two could share a thread together concerning your rewiring projects.
__ Since you most-likely have the twin power-coil '40-watt' alternator (with only two wire-leads), you'll likely need to modify the alt.stator to get full use of the alternator's capability.


" My normal rides are likely to include trips through towns, potentially traffic jams
and there's always a chance that both of these are going to be encountered at night.
If I'm out somewhere I don't want to have to plan departure times according to my supply of electricity maybe not being sufficient to get me home! Besides, I think it's very sensible to run with a light on at all times: "

____ Okay Tom, you've now made it clear that YOUR intended riding-style will not be the same (less demanding type) as the more common type of riding which most DUKEs are used for, and thus need the most power-juice production possible to keep your battery from getting discharged during slow-going night-time city-riding.
__ I believe that's fairly possible even without updating to the expensive aftermarket alternator-products which have been made available for such these modern-days,, however, with an original alt.stator (even modified), you would not be able to run for very long under such intended conditions with any high-powered head-light.


" I think bikers need all the help being seen they can get "

____ Then you should consider including a 'strobe'-light with your headlight.
Ya can get fairly powerful L.E.D.-lights which use very little power, to help with your concern.


" some engineering needs to be done to provide higher voltage at lower revs. That could be by rewinding the charging coil, and/or replacing the magnets with stronger ones. "

____ This can be accomplished by simply connecting the twin power-coils in series, (instead of half-wave rectifying them separately, like stock).


" I have a friend who specialises in alternator re-winds:
I think he'd be up for the challenge too! "

____ If you're not much wishing to save on costs, it sounds like you're in a better position than most to have something like that done. _ If it's not too much trouble, then go-ahead & find-out what he thinks about your stator and please let us know what options you then have, so that we can then figure what your best choice might ought be.


" I don't think I have a rectifier at all!
I think I need to find out exactly what I do have then acquire the necessary parts to accompany them. "

____ That's fine,, the stock rectifier, (no mater which type), would not be the most suitable for your purpose anyhow !
__ You may be interested to read-through another thread which concerns your type of alternator. _ The thread is topic-titled: "Methods to Increase Power from N-C Twin-wirelead Alternators" , and can currently be found near the bottom of page-1 of these 'topic'-pages (in this same section of this w.site).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Jordan]

" some engineering needs to be done to provide higher voltage at lower revs. That could be by rewinding the charging coil, and/or replacing the magnets with stronger ones. "

____ This can be accomplished by simply connecting the twin power-coils in series, (instead of half-wave rectifying them separately, like stock).

That's something I wasn't aware of, and sounds plausible. Have you ever done this? Which model Ducatis does it apply to? Includes the widecase singles?
I've advocated sticking to 6V and optimising as far as possible, to keep costs down and reliability up. But if it's an easy matter to rejig the existing charging coil wiring to provide more turns of wire in the coils and consequently more induced voltage, I'm very interested.