Silver Shotgun wiring harness?

[bamnfi]

Howdy!
Am obviously a newbie here and wanted some help in sourcing a new wiring harness for my 450 Silver Shotgun.

It has been 'got at' badly and needs more than a tidy up, it's landfill material.

Can anyone help?

cheers,

bam.

[ajleone]

These guys seem to have some wiring harnesses. The Silver Shotgun is not speically listed, but I would imagine it would be very similar or identical to the 450 Mark 3/450 Mark 3D. I have a Mark 3 with the Bosch induction pickup (not points) and the wiring harness is the same as my Jupiter with points.

http://www.italian-motorbikes.com/Pagin ... nglese.htm

Part number 20-038

Tony

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Am obviously a newbie here and wanted some help in sourcing a new wiring harness for my 450 Silver Shotgun. "

____ Welcome to our list here at the best w.site for Duc.singles only, 'bamnfi' !

____ You may prefer to build a wiring-harness of your own...
As that way, you can then involve yourself in the satisfaction of constructing a superior wire-harness.
I'd gladly offer suggestions for doing so !
__ Below I've included a wiring-system layout-scheme diagram, of stock 450s. _ It ought to be close to yours, for following, (although unfortunately some of the wire-colors were used for more than one circuit each).


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[hititfaster]

Hi guys - first post! Woohoo for the world of single Ducatis

I'm re-building a '61 Ducati Elite and will be wiring it up soon enough. I'll say before I start, I'm pretty bad with electrickery, but I know the basics and am pretty determined to do it myself. Looking over the above wiring diagram, all the components (with the exception of the rev gauge) seem to be pretty much the same. Could I wire my bike by this diagram?

Furthermore (rather than starting a fresh thread) I would ideally like to upgrade to a 12v system. What is the best way to do this? The parts I currently have are:

- Generator
- Headlight bowl. This seems to be complete with a lot of components. There is some wiring with it as well, although I don't know how complete!

I could take some pic's if it helps? Also, have any of you got any takes on a good, modern, ignition system?

Many thanks,

Tom.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" first post! "

____ Welcome Tom! - Nice to have you on-board here as our latest new listed-member !


" I'm re-building a '61 Ducati Elite and will be wiring it up soon enough.
Looking over the above wiring diagram, all the components (with the exception of the rev gauge) seem to be pretty much the same. Could I wire my bike by this diagram? "

____ Well Tom, doing that could possibly be done but, it's really not much the same as your much older non-WideCase 200-model had as stock.
____ While I consider myself to be a Top-Expert on DUKE electrical-systems, I didn't become involved with any of them until after the production of the 200-models had been seized,, and back in those days, most all Dukers (not 'bikers') were inclined to trade-off 175/200s in much preferred favor to obtain 250s instead ! _ And even though (at the time) I was not yet an established 'Duker' myself, I also tried to avoid taking-in any 200s.
I did eventually however come to own two 200s... one old & one very-old, (never owned & kept one of the latest 200-models though), so I was once familiar with their stock electrical-systems, but NOT well enough to have them (also) memorized & consider myself a top-expert on (as well).
__ I do know that the very oldest 200s employed an electrical-system which must not have been designed by Ducati, as it was very quite complex and much different than all newer Ducati-designed/simplified electrical-systems !
And I do believe that the newest 200s employed a system which was pretty-much the same as the first 250-Monza models came stock with. _ And I think the last of the 200-models were exported (from Italy, but not Spain) in 1962, so your (made in 1961?) 200 may have employed the latest-type of 200 electrical-system (designed by Ducati themselves). _ But it's quite possible that yours was made in 1960...
What makes you think that your 200 is a "1961" model? _ What is it's production/serial-number?


" I would ideally like to upgrade to a 12v system. What is the best way to do this? The parts I currently have are:
- Generator "

____ Updating to a 12volt-system is certainly possible but, the best way depends on which alternator-model (not "Generator") your particular 200 has...
Even the original 200s came with a more modern 'alternator' (made by CEV, not Ducati) rather than a DC-generator,
and along with a full-wave rectifier plus extra switches to cut alt.power when lights were switched-off. - (I was really quite amazed when I first learned [in the early '70s when I got my first 200], that Ducati had originally employed a charging-system very much like that which I myself had come-up with on my own to replace Ducati's -[own] later charging-systems with ! _ It seems that who-ever developed Ducati's original charging-systems for them was 'like-minded' as myself... I still find that revelation blows-my-mind -[so to speak].)
__ With THAT oldest 200 elec.system, it seems that ya could merely replace it's 6v-battery & bulbs with 12-volt items, to complete a switch-over to a 12-volt system.
However with the later/newest (Ducati-designed) 200 charging-system, the conversion to a 12-volt system would not be near as simple !
__ Please tell us how many wire-leads your 200's alt.cable has, and what colors those wires are.


" Headlight bowl. This seems to be complete with a lot of components. There is some wiring with it as well, although I don't know how complete!
I could take some pic's if it helps? "

____ Yes, some pix will indeed help ! _ A good well lite shot of the inside of the headlamp, showing it's components, and also it's entire wire-harness & protruding wire-leads,, should much help to determine how complete those items are and what's-what with your 200's system !


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[Jordan]

It's possible to convert to 12V using the existing alternator, as a permanent magnet generator will provide the volts as long as the engine provides the revs, in a direct relationship between speed and voltage. But, are you sure you'll be revving high enough for long enough to achieve more than 12V to keep the battery charged? At 6V, lower revs will be enough. To do the conversion job properly, some engineering needs to be done to provide higher voltage at lower revs. That could be by rewinding the charging coil, and/or replacing the magnets with stronger ones. Sound expensive? Have you investigated getting better performance from the 6V system, with thicker wires, relays, high efficiency headlamp bulb?

[hititfaster]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies. If you don't mind me linking you to save re-explaining things I've found out so far, please see here: http://www.bevelheaven.com/~BB/phpBB2/v ... highlight=

Please don't take offence: I found that forum before this one!

I've attached a pic of the headlight bowl as I renovated that over the last day or so and one of the alternator: it's the only one I have right now, so will pop out and take a note of the wire colours when I get a minute (possibly next year now!)




Hope this helps slightly with ID-ing. I'll have to re-read the info you've given me and digest it then I'll come back with a bit more considered response!

I really should start a build diary I think...

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I've attached a pic of the headlight bowl as I renovated that over the last day or so and one of the alternator: "

____ Thanks for those two pix Tom,, however both, (especially the head-shell), could stand to be better-lighted with added light from more than one angle/source.
__ Since you have your alt.rotor pulled-off, how about also posting a pic of your 200's alt.stator, as well? _ (I believe that 3 pics per posting are all that's possible.)

____ Thanks to the link you've supplied, I've now learned that the motor-number of your 200 is "154087", which since it's newer than 153911, means that you have the newest type of (Italian-made) 200-motor, and since it's only the 176th unit of those made, that indicates that it was indeed made in 1961 ! _ And thus your particular 200-model may have had the newest 200 electrical-system, which I believe is pretty-much identical to that used on the early 250-Monza models. _ So instead of a mere finned-rectifier, you ought to have the newer heavy/black-box (which regulates charging-current as well), and a "40-watt" twin power-coil alternator with just two (likely Yellow) wire-leads. _ (Although however, since your newer-type 200 is somewhat early into the production of the new 200-motor, you may have one which came stock with the very-previous Ducati [not oldest CEV] charging-system.)
Can you also provide a pic of your rectifier?
__ I've also learned that you're in England... So I must point-out that my own (limited!) experience with any of the 200s is relegated to just the 200-models which were imported into the U.S., only,, thus my knowledge about many DUKE-models which were imported into other countries is likely greatly lacking of many significant details. ...
I understand that many countries imported Duc.singles from both Italy & Spain during all those years, and I regretfully unfortunately have very little knowledge of what (& when) Mototrans did with their-own particular DUCATI production-line models of DUKEs ! _ But I'm inclined to believe that your 200 is an Italian-made version. _ (Mototrans continued-on producing 200-models for a few years, after the Italian-factory had quit their production by 1962. _ I think Ducati allowed Mototrans to produce the 200 once Ducati had switched production to the then-new 250.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" It's possible to convert to 12V using the existing alternator, as a permanent magnet generator will provide the volts as long as the engine provides the revs, But, are you sure you'll be revving high enough for long enough to achieve more than 12V to keep the battery charged? "

____ Jordan has brought-up a sensible concern within his post...
__ An alternator makes more & more power as it's revs climb higher & higher, and 'power' is a combination of voltage & current-draw,, so if a system's total-load draws way too much power-juice for the employed alternator, then even obtaining just 6-volts can be impossible ! _ On-the-other-hand, a 12-volt system's equivalent load-network is expected to be just HALF of the 6-volt system's, thus the load-pressure on the alternator remains virtually the same in either case... However a 12-volt system with it's 12-volt battery actually has a relatively major advantage over it's equivalent 6-volt system ! ... That being that less alt.power-juice is wasted* through charging of the battery ! - (*A std.battery absorbs power-juice to get charged-up but, it also passes more juice than it can store.)
Ya-see a battery is a unique electrical-system component in that the charging-system doesn't see it -(a std.battery) as being any load until the alternator produces more voltage than that of the battery. _ So while a 6v.battery will begin wasting the alternator's power-juice as soon as the alternator has reached over 6-volts, a 12v.battery doesn't begin wasting any juice-current until the alt.rotor-revs become high enough to make the alternator produce over 12-volts ! _ So that's a main advantage that makes a 12v.battery system more efficient than a 6v.battery system. _ (Not to mention the fact that the wiring itself tends to keep ALL the power from being used by JUST the loads, with the lower voltage systems -[as the wiring will act more like a load in series with the intended loads, as well] !)
____ Back in the early/mid-'70s, I did much extensive & quick testing of DUKE-alternators, measuring power-outputs at various RPMs, etc. _ Unfortunately, I have only a dim memory of the results, (as I had always meant to do a fully proper follow-up [with top equipment] to confirm & record the concrete results).
Because my memory is somewhat foggy on the exact results of most of the figures which I had obtained back then, the following figures are not to be taken as concrete, but rather merely to give ya just a ball-park guide of what I can currently recall getting from my test-work.
__ All stock DUCATI alternator-models were fairly close enough so that these non-exact figures are applicable towards most all of them.
With NO load, the voltage at idle was near 4v,, and at 2k-RPM, it was about 9v,, at 4k, about 25v,, at 6k, about 50v,, and at 8k, about 75v. - (I realize that these figures don't jive as well as they ought to but, I do believe that they're within 10% of what I recall getting on my meters way back then. _ It would be very nice if someone else would do the testing, to confirm that I'm not too far off with my given figures !)
The voltage-readings would of course drop-down greatly when any load (like a light-bulb) was also connected along with my meters.
The main point here is that when there's no load, the voltage will easily climb greatly upwards as the RPM increases, relatively linearly. _ (Of course that fact is of very little pertinence in the real-world of current-loads, such as headlights!) _ So when ya consider the fact that a 12v.battery doesn't become part of the load-network as soon (into the RPM-range) as a 6v.battery does, ya can then grasp/understand how a 12-volt system doesn't really require much more RPM in order to keep the battery from discharging. _ I'd suppose that the difference between a 6v.battery & a 12v.battery getting any charge-current, would be somewhere between 200 & 500 RPM (higher for the 12v), around 2800-RPM.
So while there's indeed a small window where a 6v.battery would receive some charging-current whilst a 12v.battery would not, the 12v.battery would (within that same range), not be getting discharged since the power-juice being supplied by the alternator would effectively be saving the battery from giving-up any of it's stored-juice. _ (Keep in mind that we're in reference to two otherwise identical wattage-consuming load-systems, thus the current-draw by the 12v.system's load-network is merely HALF as much!)
__ The bottom-line here is that while a 12v.system (using the same alternator) will have a slight RPM disadvantage for charging it's battery, that small disadvantage is more than made-up for by it's somewhat lessened waste of the alternator's produced power-juice.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Jordan]

If I remember my electrical classes, a permanent magnet generator develops voltage in direct proportion to speed, not steeply increasing as per Bob's example.
A friend had a daily runner 250 Monza with a faulty 6V regulator, but he found that bypassing it caused no problems (keeping the rectifier of course). It makes me think that just changing batteries might be all that's needed to convert from 6 to 12 volt system. But then, you might not have enough generated voltage to charge it reliably?