6 volt to 12 volt

[Jordan]

Hi Hans, I have tried many types of regulators, but for running with no battery the Lucas zener diode I have found to work best.
Other ones with complex circuitry don't seem to cope with this mode of operation and break, even a USA made unit.

Some guys here use a simple silicon rectifier bridge and a Lucas 12V Zener diode. I prefer a 5-wire shunt regulator-rectifier, used in chinese scooters, like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Wire-Regulator-Rectifier-Chinese-12v-ATV-Dirt-Bike-Go-Kart-150cc-200cc-250cc/142763028294?epid=1463795277&hash=item213d56ef46:g:KjoAAOSwAhNa2Cve. It provides a more precise voltage regulation compared to the Lucas Zener.
cheers Hans

[ducwiz]

Jordan, you are perfectly right with the no-battery option. Those chinese R-Rs need a battery connected, or at least an electrolytic capacitor of several 1000 uF, as a battery emulator.
The chinese devices are availabe also with an integrates capacitor, like this one:

51O1V7gZiHL._SL1001_.jpg

Unfortunately, I could not gain experience with one of them up to now, but I presume they will do the job without a battery.

Hans

[Jordan]

Hi Hans, can you please give a link to this R-R with integral cap?

[ducwiz]

Hi Jordan,

I have stored some links under my ebay account, but cannot presently log in, due to unsolved problems with this captcha process. So I just made a search for "regulator rctifier 5wire capacitor" and found two sellers in China:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-pin-5-wire-Motorcycle-Regulator-Rectifier-Voltage-Rectifier-Aluminum-Universal/163628667738?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item261907535a:g:-h8AAOSwPHhfxitp&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACkBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkfOCvCjTOBWK8pwriaolq5ledgolVrfbniljAs3eNB5SadIK9r2H0MY9obahHm0zfvi6vlO9s2bXOfxbeqHn6zwGjQ63f6xiEqALz%252FHcX1GN2xTAsyd4F37QnTWTG%252FOoPJadAiSAHrxDnuhBXKySPaor%252BIotGjQCOD%252F3pruTkAQdTrFtYOlCz20F7uPljyvYkksAeku2XEbLp%252FFyJIMJ85V8tdIr9OjWP1Ha%252BRTnW4qQI4jreR2Ufz2dqPxj1QjUezpNlM%252BoCjDnFYGlTKVOFsgGko849Y0AdzsZ191Veo1OK0Lq%252FQAwumiCQR0UvK86OTz3RB7%252Fmht1Gwy9TzczZs%252FcC3E2GnJOdHTcMz0b30Ynao6130B0dhz7zWRNyPCIaBwJ4MAiFymcfEpHKuaFcKmQrFFmHBc91sZXHsBv6rNR%252B2OexHaFOg5RVtQe%252BKIItGtaIdrvrHPlTJAKOInOhUIFg6SN8f4qrbS5C4G0xJHphrTlhAA3dmoII0FAI8sMr0MlmlzIbTNDhhsiPq0Wpa095tLPyLfWs%252Bn9QQTcn33Bykcn6SZNI6lmNPWplvmVKNEdCge9MMAP4ZXbSLt8%252F5lO5T0ZMJ3%252BKtxPfBEpgrD5%252FTz5tsvFp1i%252FsIXKCCQKWkzV56BA5fEQSxFbuLM9UHLA3PvxAPwwIg2zzc3LDhDr73mOWe89lX%252BbB%252BXo4Wm7C%252FDOrkNkUPRCwAlblr2mmfAYGVD%252BHsGfCycZC9ISmEpeukNwQBpskfYkUW4odVmLpIdO1Bar1EkKMSQy1KHRleOWNbL59XIRQgkduXrBt5bcvfb6liy1Pz26W09%252FN5%252Ff3%7Ccksum%3A16362866773808d98f99178c42389379ffb09a9b5c9c%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524d
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Regulator-5-Pin-5-Wire-Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-for-Motorbike/333723981382?hash=item4db37fd646:g:EC8AAOSwp2VfYxTd

Hope this helps

Hans

[Jordan]

Thanks Hans.
The additional capacitor may smooth the ripple of the output waveform?
I heard some say that can make batteries last longer.
It looks physically smaller than the caps usually used as battery eliminators.

[ducwiz]

Afaik the capacitor is connected between the ground wire (green) and the "sense" wire (black), which gets +12 V from the battery when the ignition lock is in ON position. It smoothes the voltage at this input, not the R-R's output. possibly, this is the reason why it could be of smaller size/capacitance.
Btw, there also 4-wire R-Rs availabe, looking similar to those I posted fotos. The black wire is missing here, a permanent connection between red and black is made inside the R-R, by the manufacturer. IBasically, they will also do the regulating job, but as they pull an unavoidable "dark" current from the battery, I do not recommend them. These R-s definitely need a large capacitor for trouble-free operation, I presume 10000 uF or more.
In the 60s and 70s, LUCAS/UK had a "2MC" capacitor https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/product-review-lucas-type-2mc-capacitor-54170009, which was used on several BSA and Triumph models. It is still available today (authentic copies?). It can be used with the chinese R-Rs, as a battery emulator.
Of course, a standard/industrial electrolytic capacitor with screw terminals can be used as well: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-CDE-10000uF-63V-Screw-Terminal-Electrolytic-Capacitor-DCMX103U063BB2B/164368033996?hash=item26451928cc:g:9poAAOSwvgdfUeMb
I prefer the screw terminal types instead of the AMP Faston version, because they show less problems with contac corrosion at the terminals.

See what is inside the mysterious chinese box:

Full Wave Regulator schematic 2.jpg

Hans

[Bob_Matthews]

A good article from Grant Tiller's site explaining all that's bad about the 'Podtronics' type reg/rec.
May not be applicable to the Ducati alternator, but certainly worth a read to be better informed.

https://granttiller.com/regulator-rectifier

[ducwiz]

Imho this is not a "good article". It was prepared carefully, but is based on misconceptions.

A permanent-magnet driven alternator (PMA) of 60-90 Watt max. power output cannot be compared with a power line transformer of 250 VA nominal output.
The behaviour in case of a short circuit is significantly different, as an alternator has a fixed power limit, and finally behaves as a constant current source, independant of the load voltage. A powerline transformer easily delivers more power than it's nominal value, here 250VA (too much anyway). Moreover, it has a much higher inductance, resulting in a different dynamic behaviour.
The tests should have been made with the original alternator, with the bike's engine running at different rpm.
So, don't care, the chinese R-Rs have been produced and utilized successfully in millions. The shunt-regulation principle was also used in millions of japanese bikes ("Shindengen" and other brands), since the late 1960s.
Btw, the Podtronic R-R is of the 4-wire type, which I did not recommend due to a slight but continuos current drain from the battery.

cheers Hans

[Bevel bob]

Interesting, I have read that article and was wondering about my alternator that has packed in while using a POd . I did notice a current drain that stops when the battery is disconnected. I will be using a zener and seperate rec in future, just in case.

[BevelBitsaBrighton]

I have just converted my widecase 450 to 12V, it also has just the 2 yellow wire alternator output. I used an Elextrex RR163 reg/rec unit.
Both my singles (I also have a Mach1) have Electrex 12V systems, so they have electronic ignitions, halogen headlights & a loud horn!
Perhaps the roads are just more dangerous here in the UK?