Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

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JimF
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Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby JimF » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:56 am

Thank you gentlemen, I saw a recent post by Jon Pegler, ( 7-23-2018) where
he cites that Ducati engine #'s starting with 114,115,116 , are Spanish
built motors. Thank you, I can now lay to rest my uncertainty about my
little 250's motor. However, since I last inquired into this issue as to
just what I have here ( see Late production 250 scr, 5/23/2014). There
seemed to be concensus that this bike is an Italian built SCR with Italian
frame #254411 and Spanish motor # 115340 all dolled up in Road trim with a
heavy aluminum build tag staked to the headstock that identifies this bike
as an SCR printed in French and stating in French that this model
originates from " DUCATI MECCANICA IMPORTE' D'ITALIE ". My purpose in
revisiting this issue is to see if there may be a way to find certainty and
to reassure a potential buyer of the origin of this bike. So the question
is, how did what looks like a Spanish built Road 250 end up with so many
Italian built identifiers?, and can the case be made that this may be a
unique if not significant little Ducati single that for purposes of
provenance is as Italian as any other Ducati single manufactured in 1974.

IF possible , is there any info at this time that could peg down when this
bike left the factory? Thank you Steve Funke, Kalispell MT

Jon Pegler
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Jon Pegler » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:25 am

There is plenty of evidence that some of the late Bologna built Ducati singles had parts supplied by Mototrans in Spain.
In particular, the late 250 Scramblers and the blue and gold 350 Mark 3.
Almost all of the late 250 Scramblers had Spanish engines and frames, quite a few had Spanish forks.
So Steve Funkes bike is by no means unique.
If his bike is a French import, with the printed tag rivetted to the frame, it should have the date of manufacture stamped onto it. My guess would be that it dates from about 1973 or 1974 from the engine and frame numbers that he has supplied.

The reason for the use of Mototrans parts in the later life of the Italian built singles was that Bologna was gearing up for V-twin production and lacked capacity to complete enough singles.
There is more written information on the use of Spanish parts by the Italian factory in many of the books on Ducati singles.
See Mick Walkers Ducati singles or Tom Baileys Ducati. First Person as a couple of examples.

Jon

Ventodue
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Ventodue » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:45 pm

JimF wrote: So the question is, how did what looks like a Spanish built Road 250 end up with so many Italian built identifiers?

As per Jon. I don’t see any particular mystery regarding your bike’s mix of components or its provenance, Steve.

The bike would have been assembled in Bologna, Italy by Ducati Meccanica S.p.A using a significant number of parts supplied by Mototrans in Barcelona, Spain. By 1974, this was common practice, Ducati Bologna having ceased production of non-Desmo single engines a year or so earlier, and most/all 250 Scramblers were built up using Spanish components.

(In addition, in 1974, Bologna was gearing up for 860 production - as well as having to cope with a whole boatload of strikes, go slows and other social/industrial disputes. But that’s another story …)

JimF wrote: ... and can the case be made that this may be a unique if not significant little Ducati single that for purposes of provenance is as Italian as any other Ducati single manufactured in 1974?


See above. While the bike may be rare, it's not unique; and if Italian provenance is important to you, you can claim what you like :).

BTW:
The fact that the bike was sold into the French market is interesting because Ducati France was obliged to cease trading in April 1974 by order of the Ministry of the Environment whose inspectors had discovered that certain models did not conform with noise emissions standards (eek!).

The upshot was that a new company, SIMMO, was formed at the end of 1974. Still under the same boss, Jean Legrand, the new business was based in Avignon and its main purpose was to import the beveldrive twins. However, a reduction in the French purchase tax rate for machines under 250cc gave rise during 1975 to a couple of single cylinder, French market specials, Mark 3s and Desmos of 239cc.

Credit and thanks to Marc Poels for most of this info.

mtsteve
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby mtsteve » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:26 am

Thanks Jon & Ventodue , just to be clear, the frame # on this bike is also Spanish? The "SCR" stamped on the build tag is correct for a "Road" model?, or would a "Road" have a different code. Or as you both have implied, this bike is a not so deliberate assembly of parts at hand and if it looks like a "Road" and gets an SCR code "SO What". The Tag is dated 1974. Thanks again, Steve

Ventodue
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Ventodue » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:14 am

mtsteve wrote:<snip> ... just to be clear, the frame # on this bike is also Spanish?

Jon is The Man to advise you on the differences between a SCR frame and a Road frame; but I suspect the frame is Italian.

According to Ian Falloon, 250 SCR frames from this period start at 252000, so yours at 254411 fits this series. The number should also be preceded by "DM250", the "DM" standing for Ducati Meccanica, and the frame should carry a homologation code of DGM 7935 OM. This is an Italian homologation code, not Spanish.

mtsteve wrote:The "SCR" stamped on the build tag is correct for a "Road" model?, Or would a "Road" have a different code? Or as you both have implied, this bike is a not so deliberate assembly of parts at hand and if it looks like a "Road" and gets an SCR code "So What".

Are you sure that the bike is a Road and not a late model SCR? Visually, the differences are not great - see below. The flat seat base is a pointer, tho', as are the different style of side boxes and the front guard. At this stage, my inclination is that it's a 250 SCR assembled as previously described using various Spanish parts, for the domestic European market.

Image

Jon Pegler
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Jon Pegler » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:02 am

The Spanish built 250 Scrambler frames that were numbered in a similar way to the Italian built frames, namely, stamped DM 250 S ------ with the homologation code Craig quotes..
There are a few pointers to a Spanish frame, but these are not always to be taken as a certain way to identify a Spanish built frame.
The Spanish swinging arm usually had the extra bracing welded underneath the main legs for strengthening. Some Italian swinging arms also had this feature, so not a guarantee of Spanish origin.
The swinging arm also had small square section strips welded vertically in front of the wheel spindle slots, for the eccentric swinging arm cam adjusters to bear against. This was an exclusive Spanish modification.

The widecase Road models had a different frame number sequence starting 400 --- or 410---.
Although the frames on the widecase Road and the Scrambler are very similar, the Road frame will have two prongs welded under the fuel tank to allow for tank mounting, whereas the Scrambler tank has tabs welded to the tank that bolt through to the steering head.

Another pointer to the difference between a Road or a Scrambler is the speedo drive. Almost all the Road models use a seperate speedo drive gearbox on the front wheel spindle, but by the time Mototrans started making the Scrambler they had finally started using the front hub with the integral speedo drive inside a cover plate, a feature the Italians had used for many years. They seemed to only use the integral speedo gearbox on the Scrambler models, although all sorts of strange things happened in Barcelona, so there are variations to all models.

I would be interested in a photo of Steve's bike as that would help confirm just what it is.

Jon

Ventodue
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Ventodue » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:27 am

Ta, Jon. Good stuff. (I had a feeling that you'd previously pointed out that the Spanish 250 SCRs carry the Italian frame numbering ...).

Jon Pegler wrote: Although the frames on the widecase Road and the Scrambler are very similar, the Road frame will have two prongs welded under the fuel tank to allow for tank mounting, whereas the Scrambler tank has tabs welded to the tank that bolt through to the steering head.

Illustration attached, Steve.

Tank mountings.jpg

Jon Pegler wrote:I would be interested in a photo of Steve's bike as that would help confirm just what it is.

Second that.

mtsteve
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:18 am

Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby mtsteve » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:35 pm

Jon, thanks for all the info. Here's more to chew on. Yes, this bike has flat seat base, bayonet type fuel tank mount, clam shell chain adjuster with ribbed swing arm, in the hub speedo drive, dual pinstriped fenders and CEV small round tail lamp with large square license mount. Here are the numbers welded to the frame left side near the swing arm pivot. Back in 2012 Robert Miller stated that since the frame code stamped on the welded tag doesn't match the number on the aluminum ID tag that somebody messed up and got the tags switched. But here are the numbers on that tag. ( D.M. 250 SCR. 254408 ), should have ended (411). Second line on welded tag reads (DGM. 1985. OM. ) Tell me what a Homologation code is. Furthermore the numbers and letters that I can see stamped under the tag staked to the headstock appear to match those on the tag welded to the frame with the exception of the 408/411 mix up. I would like to remove that headstock tag to take a picture of the stamped codes but I do not want to damage the tag. I used to have pics of this bike but lost the files I will take some new ones soon. I do have pics of the build tag on the headstock and can send them to you and would be happy to send more pics of the frame details but I don't see a provision on this reply page for attachments. One more thing, there are four holes on the shifter box where there had once been a tag attached. But I have measured the bore at standard 74mm. Steve

Ventodue
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby Ventodue » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:18 am

mtsteve wrote:Second line on welded tag reads (DGM. 1985. OM. ) Tell me what a Homologation code is (please ...)

'Homologation' is type approval.

Interesting that the frame has the "1985" homologation (type approval) number. This was the number originally given to the narrow-case 250 frame, way back in 1961! (see page 100 of Ian's "Book of the Overhead Camshaft Singles"). However, it's true that it continued to be used on widecase 250 models such as the Mark 3 - and your SCR/Road!

BTW:
"DGM" stands for Direzione Generale per la Motorizzazione, the type approval authority. (Altho' the original approval was in fact issued by this body's predecessor, the IGM = Ispettorato Generale della Motorizzazione Civile e dei Trasporti in Concessione).

"OM" is omologazione.

mtsteve wrote: ... but I don't see a provision on this reply page for attachments.

Just below the dialogue box.

Attachment.jpg

mtsteve
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Re: Provenance question (relayed from an email sent to Admin)

Postby mtsteve » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:21 pm

Thank you Ventodue & Jon, I have attached pics of the 250 SCR/ROAD. I had a few more showing the tank mounts and the swing arm brace but they didn't load. So I hope these help. I am understanding then that the "type" approval means model type and that the homologation code is a certification by an authority. Could you please provide me some more context on that subject. Thanks again, Steve
Attachments
P9160005.JPG
headstock tag, note codes stamped on frame
P9160004.JPG
tag weld to frame
P9160003.JPG
chain adjuster
P9160002.JPG
speedo drive
P9160001 - Copy - Copy - Copy.JPG
tail lamp


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