1965 ducati narrow case

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= flanker ...
" main beam warning, charge light, Ignition warning. So 3 is the answer, unless I have overlooked something. I see another light connected via a white wire from the lighting switch and I assume that is the parking light??? "

____ Correct, that's the parking-lightbulb,, and stock Monza headlamps included a green-colored indicator that was intended to indicate whether the parking-light was lit. _ And since I saw that you have a green indicator-lamp, I thus thought perhaps you might be planing to employ four pilot-lamps altogether. _ (That's what I-myself would opt for, with such a project as yours!)



" I have the stock headlamp.
Its the 150 mm bigger light, that I think went with the 1965 monza 250. "

____ That's 'correct', as the pre'66 Monza-models came stock with the larger round-headlamp type !



" What I took out of the inside
is shown in the photo below. "

____ If that's indeed everything from within the headlamp-shell,, then not-only is the bulb-holder for the charging-indicator missing, but-also the fuse-holders (for the three stock-type fuses) as well as the wiring terminal-board !



" I believe the the parking light is attached to the white bulb holder. "

____ Indeed so, as that's the physical-location for the parking-lightbulb ! _ However the particular tube-bulb that's seen inserted within your parking-light bulb-holder, seems to be a longer version than stock.
__ And the stock tube-shaped lightbulb is the same size as the one used for the stock charging-indicator, (except that it's a 3-watt version while the indicator-bulb is rather only 1.5-watts).



" The other bulb is a 12v and fits nicely. "

____ How many watts is that 12v.bulb ? _ (The stock 6v.version was only 30/25-watts.)
You should use one of such with a much wattage as possible, so as to take advantage of the increased power made available by your expensive Electrix charging-system !
__ I believe another member had found a 50/45-watt 12v.bulb that fits the stock HL.bulb-holder.



" I may have to search out an ignition warning light. The one you indicated in my picture looks beat up.... "

____ While I'd agree that it looks odd,, it ought to serve the intended purpose, providing that it'll power-up okay by your 12v.battery.


" Its yellow. "

____ I may as well be that non-stock color, since stock n-c.systems don't include an ignition-warning indicator.


" I understand now it needs both circuit connections to function. "

____ Right,, and that light-holder you've got could have a pair of 20 ~ 24-gauge wire-leads soldered to it, to connect it to it's intended circuit.



____ What did you ever think about the possible modified horn-wiring scheme/arrangement that may rather always-leave your horn-button active (without the key inserted) ?


Good-Cheers,
-Bob

[flanker]

[quote= flanker ...
" main beam warning, charge light, Ignition warning. So 3 is the answer, unless I have overlooked something. I see another light connected via a white wire from the lighting switch and I assume that is the parking light??? "

____ Correct, that's the parking-lightbulb,, and stock Monza headlamps included a green-colored indicator that was intended to indicate whether the parking-light was lit. _ And since I saw that you have a green indicator-lamp, I thus thought perhaps you might be planing to employ four pilot-lamps altogether. _ (That's what I-myself would opt for, with such a project as yours!)

_____Green will be the parking light

" What I took out of the inside
is shown in the photo below. "

____ If that's indeed everything from within the headlamp-shell,, then not-only is the bulb-holder for the charging-indicator missing, but-also the fuse-holders (for the three stock-type fuses) as well as the wiring terminal-board !

_____Thats everything no question. Looks like I have to find the above items that you listed. Should I be looking for widecase parts? W/c bulb-holders and wiring terminal board. I kind of felt like not everything was there.

" I believe the the parking light is attached to the white bulb holder. "

____ Indeed so, as that's the physical-location for the parking-lightbulb ! _ However the particular tube-bulb that's seen inserted within your parking-light bulb-holder, seems to be a longer version than stock.
__ And the stock tube-shaped lightbulb is the same size as the one used for the stock charging-indicator, (except that it's a 3-watt version while the indicator-bulb is rather only 1.5-watts).

_____Ok I will get those too

" The other bulb is a 12v and fits nicely. "

____ How many watts is that 12v.bulb ? _ (The stock 6v.version was only 30/25-watts.)
You should use one of such with a much wattage as possible, so as to take advantage of the increased power made available by your expensive Electrix charging-system !
__ I believe another member had found a 50/45-watt 12v.bulb that fits the stock HL.bulb-holder.

_____the 12v lightbulb is 45/40w, Ill find the 50/45w

" I may have to search out an ignition warning light. The one you indicated in my picture looks beat up.... "

____ While I'd agree that it looks odd,, it ought to serve the intended purpose, providing that it'll power-up okay by your 12v.battery.

_____ fair enough

" Its yellow. "

____ I may as well be that non-stock color, since stock n-c.systems don't include an ignition-warning indicator.

_____ so far so good

____ What did you ever think about the possible modified horn-wiring scheme/arrangement that may rather always-leave your horn-button active (without the key inserted) ?

_____ Isn't that what a second relay would cure?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ First-off,, I make-note that I've once-again performed editing of your post's 'Quote' shading, so as to have your-own added wording stand-out for your readers to more easily discern.



[quote= flanker ...
" _____Green will be the parking light "

____ Since I doubt that you really mean to have your parking-light itself to-be green-colored,
I rather gather that you actually now intend to add a 4th pilot-lamp which will retain the stock green-colored (parking-lights ON) indicator function. (?)



" Looks like I have to find the above items that you listed. "

____ That could be so if it's really important to you to have all the Monza-headlamp's internals be pretty-much same as stock. _ However none of the missing parts are actually required in order to have everything properly wired & connected-up to function like stock, electrically.
And besides,, the stock fuse-holders are rather quite junky, and you've indicted you already have new modern/std.type fuse-holders & wire-terminal/connectors (which can take the place of those old/missing electrical-parts).



" Should I be looking for widecase parts? W/c bulb-holders and wiring terminal board. "

____ Since you have a n-c.model, I'd normally be inclined to say 'no' to such a question,, but in this case, I'm pretty-sure that most-all the individual internal headlamp-parts are very-near exactly the same for both battery-powered n-c & w-c headlamp-models.

However the particular tube-bulb that's seen inserted within your parking-light bulb-holder, seems to be a longer version than stock.
__ And the stock tube-shaped lightbulb is the same size as the one used for the stock charging-indicator, (except that it's a 3-watt version while the indicator-bulb is rather only 1.5-watts).

" _____Ok I will get those too "

____ Since you already have suitable pilot-lamps that could work with the Electrex charge-indicator circuit, you don't need to acquire a 1.5w tube-bulb ! _ However you do need to rather employ a 12v.tube-bulb for the parking-light holder,, and I'd suggest getting a suitably sized tube-bulb that has the most*powerful wattage available, (which I believe is 10w), as the original 3w.light merely causes the headlight to barely glow !
(* Unless you actually intend to ever leave your parking-lights left turned-on for over an hour's time.)

__ I believe another member had found a 50/45-watt 12v.bulb that fits the stock HL.bulb-holder.

" _____the 12v lightbulb is 45/40w, Ill find the 50/45w "

____ It just might've been a '45/40w' version that the other member had found,, but I'm now thinking that it might've actually been a 6-volt 55/45w.version, (now that I further ponder my recall of that past memory).
__ If a 12-volt 50/45w.version actually exists, it wouldn't really be significantly brighter to be worth substituting.
However if you can find something like a 55/50w or higher-wattage version, then I'd recommend that you acquire such.

____ What did you ever think about the possible modified horn-wiring scheme/arrangement that may rather always-leave your horn-button active (without the key inserted) ?

"_____ Isn't that what a second relay would cure? "

____ A second-relay is-not needed for any horn-circuit,, however a single horn-relay that's powered from one of the fuse-circuits (which follows-after the key-switched power-circuit), would indeed keep the relay-connected horn activatable only-just whenever the key-switch is turned-on.
__ So if you already have an extra SPST.relay available, then you could possibly make-use of it for a standard horn-relay function,, however otherwise, if your horn-button contacts are in good condition (for handling your high-power horn), then your regular horn-function could possibly double-up as a sort-of intruder-alert alarm as well.
____ I only intend to draw-up a single final-version of your intended final wiring-scheme, so we first need to get all it's final-details all ironed-out ahead-of-time.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[flanker]

Yeah I am hopeless with that quote button. Apologies...

To be clear yes I will add a 4th pilot lamp!

The headlight does not have to be stock at all, I want function reliability and "fixability". I do have the inline modern fuse holders and the wire terminal connectors.

I will get a suitably sized 12v.tube-bulb for the parking-light holder.

A single horn relay is what I meant to convey. My horn-button contacts are in good condition. The intruder-alert alarm sounds interesting, but I don't want it to go off like all these nonsense car alarms on the street!

Yes I would like to hammer out every detail. I do appreciate you effort and time and I am enjoying this process immensely!!!! No stone unturned. Although I cannot wait to start, I'm quite patient and determined. Please ask for any info!!!!

Cheers Rob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= flanker ...
" Yeah I am hopeless with that quote button. Apologies... "

____ Of-course no apology need be offered towards DewCatTea-Bob/myself, as I don't mind doing such tidying-up organization.
__ During my first-year as a member here,, I-myself also didn't realize how to properly deal with the Quote-feature, so I then rather developed my-own straight-forward standard-typing method of quoting just the pertinent-wording of others' posts (to clarify exactly what my-own post-wording is actually in direct-response to).



" To be clear yes I will add a 4th pilot lamp! "

____ Okay, good ! _ Now that-way, you'll have all three of the n-c.array of pilot-lamps plus-also the w-c's general-power/ignition ON indicator-feature.



" A single horn relay is what I meant to convey. "

____ It had occurred to me what you had probably meant by "a second relay",, but I tend to word my posts with consideration towards the general-reader as-well as the post-writer who's post I'm responding-to, and I didn't wish to allow anyone-else to think that we might be considering somehow using two relays for just your horn.



" My horn-button contacts are in good condition. "

____ Then it might handle the current-demand of your high-power horn well enough.



" The intruder-alert alarm sounds interesting, but I don't want it to go off like all these nonsense car alarms on the street! "

____ Of-course we-all hear that concern ! _ But you must already realize that the prospective 'intruder' would be one who's apt to try actually-pushing the horn-button, and of-course the horn-blare who discontinue immediately after releasing the button ! _ That's why I had stated "a sort-of intruder-alert alarm".



" I do appreciate you effort and time and I am enjoying this process immensely!!!! "

____ As I tend to do at my-end as well, since I've become too disabled to complete any of my-own remaining Duke-projects,, and-so this mentoring-outlet is the only way left for me to get any kind of enjoyment out-of dealing with my leftover love for OHC.Dukes.
It seems you may be my-kind of potential full-fledged Duke-person, seeings-how you seem to care about preferring to take the high-road routes with most everything.
__ I only wish I could somehow likewise mentor my-own teenage-self, as that-one of me would certainly really-appreciate all the related Duke-info which my current-self could provide. _ And the likes of yourself seems to be a close-second. _ So thanks for that !


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[flanker]

That type of intruder alarm could be interesting... to say the least! it would probably startle a few people and get a laugh. But would it drain the battery. I suppose not.

I know what you mean I used to love playing rugby and wrestling but after 6 surgeries I've been forced to give it up. But one can always find ways around it. Now its motorcycles (which I've been riding for ages but new to mechanics) and surfing. Which I'm pretty thankful for. I had a mentor in a biochemistry program I did way back, Dr Richard Brandt. You sort of remind me of him due to your knowledge base and attention to detail. This guy is as sharp as I've seen, he really knows his stuff. Moreover he tortured me with the details, but I really learned so much and remain in his debt. We published 5 papers in 2 years. Sadly he was going blind and could not do any experiments or read (which was his passion). I'll tell you it was horrible driving with the guy though, he insisted upon driving. It was pretty frightening to say the least.

I got some bad news from the Michael at vintage brakes. He says 3 months before the brakes are done!!! and wheels are with him too... I should of just done it myself, but I'm sure I'll appreciate the extra braking in the end.... I'm pretty psyched for him though it sounds like he has so many great projects. I asked him to see if he could squeeze me in.

I'm hoping I can still make the wiring harness in the meantime. I don't want to put the engine in till the wheels are on though. Thoughts?

Just for clarification, I will need to make/have four spots in the headlamp case for idiot lights correct? Main beam warning, charge light, ignition warning (I'm assuming thats the "general-power/ignition ON"), and parking light indicator.

Furthermore, I sourced a blue light for the ignition warning light that has 2 prongs, similar to that yellow light I pulled off the bike. The other 3 idiot lights mentioned above I can use my supply of idiot lights that are of the type that are dependent-on 'physical-ground' circuit. Is there any reason to even use the festoon bulb attached to the white piece which holds the main bulb?

I was wondering if you could give me the colors they are supposed to be. I'd like to use the proper colors other than the blue light (which may or may not have been used). I don't have a wide case manual and my 1965 manual shows only 2 idiot lights red and green .

For my final question of the night... I'm having trouble finding a suitable front brake switch. In previous posts you mentioned a mototrans-duke model, but these seem to be unobtainable. Is there another option that you know of, or maybe other search criteria besides mototrans?

Thx again truly, Rob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= flanker ...
" That type of intruder alarm could be interesting...
it would probably startle a few people
But would it drain the battery. "

____ While thinking they're alone, kids and even teens & older types often feel the hankering-notion to risk pressing the horn-button even-though pretty-sure it's not going to work. _ So yes, the unexpected surprise indeed tends to scare them away (and more importantly alert you to the fact that somebody is messing-around with your prized Duke).
But unless someone has the gull to keep the horn-button constantly depressed for over a quarter-hour, the battery shouldn't become completely discharged during such an unlikely event.



" I'm hoping I can still make the wiring harness in the meantime. "

____ Even if your frame is bare, it's still possible to construct a wiring-harness around it, so you may wish to get started with at-least a prototype/trial-harness.
So you ought consider getting started with preparing your wire-harness's main lengths of individual colored wires.
__ If you're much like myself concerning preferred perfection with whatever you do,, then after you've finished a job for the very-first time, ya then realize how ya could've done most every part of it in a superior fashion, had ya only known everything ahead-of-time that ya learned in the process of completing it ! _ And-so if you possibly end-up with a fairly major compromise with your first-attempt, then you have an excuse to do the whole-thing over again with all the other minor*imperfections (you had let slide-by the first-time) corrected as well. _ (* It's impossible to know what-all they will be ahead-of-time, but you'll know what they all are by the time you're finished with your first-attempt.) _ (At least I've already clued you on the best crimping-method, so that's one perfection-factor that you don't have-to discover for yourself by the time you've gotten near half-way done !)



" I will need to make/have four spots in the headlamp case for idiot lights correct? "

____ That's correct, but your stock Monza-headlamp should already have three holes prepared for all the stock pilot-lamps ! _ So you should only have-to prepare one additional spot for the fourth pilot-lamp. _ And that should be done with careful consideration for best suited available physical-space within the HL.bucket/shell's spare-capacity (and not so much based upon where it would look best located externally) !



" Main beam warning, charge light, ignition warning (I'm assuming thats the "general-power/ignition ON"), and parking light indicator.
I sourced a blue light for the ignition warning light that has 2 prongs, "

____ Your 1st, 2nd & 4th listed indicator-functions are the three which should already have established locations atop your headlamp.
At this point, I'm not sure where'd be best to try installing your ignition-warning pilot-lamp. _ How about a picture of it along-with your headlamp ?
__ Your 'Ignition-Warning' indicator will be pretty-much performing the same functions as the WideCase's 'GEN' indicator does. - ('GEN' does-not stand for 'generator' as many newbies assume,, my-own understanding is that it rather stands for 'GENERAL', meaning that battery-power is generally available [I assume]. _ And since that stock w-c GEN.circuit is connected at the ign.coil rather than directly to the battery, it's then also fair-enough for it to be considered as an 'ignition powered-up' indicator as well.)



" The other 3 idiot lights mentioned above I can use my supply of idiot lights that are of the type that are dependent-on 'physical-ground' circuit. "

____ Correct, as those three are set to work with a grounded metal headlamp-shell.



" I was wondering if you could give me the colors they are supposed to be. "

____ As you already know so far,, the high-beam idiot-light is 'red', and the parking-light indicator-lamp is green.
The n-c.charging-indicator lens was a creamy-white (on the '66 models at least, [I don't recall for-sure on the pre'66 headlamps, but I think it was rather clear]).
And the w-c.GEN.pilot-light is 'clear', (or white, as on the old L-twins) !



" Is there any reason to even use the festoon bulb attached to the white piece which holds the main bulb? "

____ While others may think not, I-myself always thought it made for a 'nice-touch' and provided a lighting option that would allow the battery to have a rest from trying to power the main-headlight during extended night-time stop&go city-riding.
Within the USA, that light has always been referred-to as strictly a 'parking-light' only,, however over in Italy, it's my understanding that it was also rather considered to be as the accepted headlight for running within 'downtown' city-limits during the night-hours when the city street-lights then provided all the visible-lighting considered necessary for seeing and being seen within inner-city town-streets. _ And that made fair sense, since running the stronger std.headlight would then not provide any useful lighting, and the stop&go type in-town riding would otherwise eventually drain-down the battery anyways.
It's pretty doubtful that anyone ever really bothered to get much use out of that odd light just for mere parked lighting.
__ You could consider having it serve a dual-purpose, such as wiring it up to also light-up whenever the brake-light is activated.



" I'm having trouble finding a suitable front brake switch. Is there another option that you know of, "

____ Since no n-c.Duke-models ever came stock with a front brake-switch, you could go without one.
__ However it's not too difficult to attach a common mercury-switch or metallic-ball switch to the inner-side of the headlamp to activate the brake-light. ...
After such a switch has been affixed to the inside (with putty/clay or silicon-seal),, you then adjust it's setting so that it still doesn't quite-yet activate with the front-forks near fully compressed, then fully-adhere the angle-adjusted switch in that chosen set-position. _ That way, when application of the front-brake compresses the forks along-with some significant resulted deceleration, the forward-flung mercury within the sensing-switch will then activate the intended associated brake-light circuit.
(And yes,, braking by just the rear-brake alone while running down hill, will also possibly activate that front-end located brake-switch,, but of-course it doesn't hurt to have both brake-switches turn-on the brake-light (even if you're not using the front-brake) ! - [And it doesn't really hurt to let anyone running down-hill behind you, to think that you may be braking sooner than you actually do.])


Contentive-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[flanker]

Ok I'm going with the intruder alarm! I mean who has one? Quite unique

Yep the second time is much better!

I figured there would be a room issue... with extra lights. The headlight is at the painter but I'm stopping by there on Saturday so I will snap a pic. I only remember 2 holes for lights and a hole for the key switch. But I will check Saturday.

Thx for the info on GEN. It really wasn't making any sense as I thought it stood for general....

The inner-city town Italian thought process gives a much better explanation. I don't think I need it attached to the brake light. But interesting nonetheless!

Oh man I think I'll just take the rear brake light switch.... Although I am somewhat tempted by the switch in the inner side of the headlamp.....

I'll post pics on sat of my headlamp. cheers Rob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= flanker ...
" Ok I'm going with the intruder alarm! I mean who has one? "

____ Back in the '70s, I wired-up several Dukes that way,, not-only for that purpose, but also to allow the horn to have a stronger connection with the battery's juice-supply (for a better operating horn) !
And I'm not the only one I knew-of who ever bothered to wire-up the horn (as well as the brake-light) to be operable without the key-switch being turned-on !
__ I'll soon modify the related circuit-scheme of the master-diagram to reflect the rather direct horn-circuit, (as well as another change or two).
And if you happen to end-up not liking the horn-circuit being left live, you could always go-ahead & include a key-switched horn-relay.



" I figured there would be a room issue... with extra lights. "

____ The large-type headlamp ought have plenty of space available for added odds-&-ends, especially since you have a number of stock internal pieces missing.
You just need to make-sure that nothing you add happens to end-up interfering with anything else that's nearly located within your HL.shell.
For instance,, if your latest blue-lamp happens to be extra-long, then you'll have-to consider whether your chosen location for it may possibly cause it to interfere with the fitment of anything else near-around it.



" I only remember 2 holes for lights and a hole for the key switch. "

____ I haven't owned a pre'66-Monza since the '70s, so I no-longer recall where the charging-indicator was located on the external-surface of the headlamp,, so I'm curious to see a picture of a stock pre'66-type Monza-headlamp !



" Thx for the info on GEN. It really wasn't making any sense as I thought it stood for general.... "

____ According to a couple of MotoGuzzi-riding Italians I once knew (who were both from Italy and readily spoke Italian to one another), they each tried to explain to me what the 'GEN' indicator was actually meant to represent,, and it really stood for "general", which in Italy seems to've earned a certain-meaning which indicates that "all is well" (as one of them put-it), or that the system is generally in normal working-order & good-to-go -(which is my generalized -recollection of their consensus of the nature of that Italian-term).



" I don't think I need it attached to the brake light. "

____ Since your Monza-headlight is battery-powered, the relatively weak parking-lamp would be pretty-much useless (with the headlight turned-on) anyhow !
I've never wired-up the parking-light itself to be activatable by the brake-light switch,, but rather, I have indeed set-up the headlamp to light-up whenever the brake-switch was activated ! ...
__ For n-c.Scrambler-models that have AC.powered headlights,, I'd adapt them for city-riding use by setting-up a battery to power the brake-light and an added horn, and-also for powering an added light-bulb placed within the headlamp for supplementing the weak AC.powered headlight, as well !
I'd make an extra hole in the stock headlight-reflector to accept the fitting of a std.taillight-bulb holder,, and-then wire-up the thusly mounted light-bulb so that it's taillight-filament would power-up from the key-switched battery-power available to the brake-switch/horn circuit, and wire-up the brakelight-filament so that it would only light-up just when the brake-switch was activated.
I (and others !) found this modified headlight feature to be very-convenient,, not-only for when the engine wasn't running (and making it's undesired loud ex.noise at night), but-also during the times while waiting at a stoplight at night when the engine would be merely idling and thus-then not powering-up the headlight sufficiently enough.
I, for one,, came to much appreciate this modification-feature (as implemented within the headlamp of my very-first Scrambler-Duke, when I was a teenager), and ever-since thought of it as one of the best & most-useful improvements I ever came-up with for any Duke-singles !
(However 'these-days', one is-not so likely to be very dependent on his Duke during late-night hours.)



" I think I'll just take the rear brake light switch.... "

____ Another possible option is to mount a Jap.bike handlebar-brakelever with built-in brake-switch.
Although it could possibly be advantageous at times, to have the option of braking speed without lighting-up your brake-light.



" Although I am somewhat tempted by the switch in the inner side of the headlamp..... "

____ That's concerning why it could be nice to have such a front brake-switch power-up the parking-light, cuz then you could also be made aware of whenever the mercury-switch is activating that circuit's green indicator-lamp.


____ Now getting back-to the first-subject at the top of the page...
Still another cleverish-option would be to wire-up the high-beam to light-up whenever the horn is activated.
Need I point-out the added benefits of that circuit-modification ?


Enlightening-Cheers,
-Bob

UPDATE: - I've now completed three major changes to the master-diagram (as mentioned earlier I'd soon do).
While I don't expect anyone to notice any of the included improvements in quality, I however do expect that the three rather significant changes are obviously noted.
More related details to come-up later.
DCT-Bob

[flanker]

Bob thx for starting the wiring diagram that thing is the on worrisome part of the rebuild, I didn't go to the painter yet he's over 1 hour away with 405 traffic and chose to wait for a few more parts to come so I could drop them off too. Picture of headlight and bulbs soon!! I'm now sure there are only 2 original warning lights on my headlamp. I'm thinking about your other suggestions! Write more tom it's getting late out here! Rob