Gearbox shimming

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thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Gearbox shimming

Postby thatnameisal » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:06 am

Hi gang. I am a new member here. Long time listener, first time caller.

I recently purchased a 1965 Junior 160cc that came as a frame and trash barrel of parts. Took the motor all the way down and replaced the bearings with these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#6680k16/=ovb2s7 for the crank, bevel, well...everything (correct sizes of course). The inner races move MUCH more than the original RIV bearings.

I have the crank shimmed according to the manual's spec (between 0.003 & 0.005) but the manual does not list the clearances for the shifter drum, drive gears, etc. I searched the boards and found a couple of posts about shims for the crank and some responses therein suggesting shimming the gearbox but nothing with clearance numbers.

Does anybody have suggestions for the clearances for the drive gears, shifter drum, kicker gear, etc.?

Thank you all in advance for your assistance. If I missed a previous post with this information sorry - please dont flame me on my first post ;)

LaceyDucati
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
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Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby LaceyDucati » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:34 am

Hello

Firstly you may have unfortunately misinterpreted the crank clearance as it is 0.03 to 0.05mm, not 0.003 to 0.005 what evers, thous? I personally shim cranks tighter, to zero to 0.01mm on the basis that it is only going to get slacker when it gets hot. The crank is also more likely to spread with the factory setting. Basically as long as the rod bobs up on it's own when the cases are fully tight then it is not to tight. You have used none standard angular thrust mains, which in principle is okay, however I would definitely close up the side clearance towards zero otherwise the bearings will not work at there best and may lead to much movement in the bearings. Note bevel twins are shimmed to zero with similar bearings.

As for the gearbox, the design of the gearbox with an input and an output shaft doesn't lend itself to shimming like some other box's. Basically the shafts (and the fixed gears) are positioned by 2mm end shims, the other end is responsible only for the end float of the final gear. Generally speaking if you put the shims as per the parts book 95% plus of all gearboxes will work fine. I suppose somewhere around 0.2 to 0,3mm would be ideal for side play of a gear. Unless you have sufficient extra clearance to fit a 0.3mm shim or larger don't bother, as it will only spit it out! With a 5 speed narrowcase, I would avoid shimming the output shaft to any extent as the side play allows oil to lubricate the bronze bush which the output shaft in the four upper gears spins in. It should be noted that side play is necessary in all gears to allow good lubrication.

Okay, if you have time and the patience, sometimes you can make gains with careful retrospective shimming, but if you study the box hard enough most of the time you are making one thing worse to make one thing better! On this subject, there are various tolerancing errors in the gearboxes and you can't make it perfect by any amount of shimming anyway. Shimming the selector drum tighter will normally just result in worn out forks (from my observations of engines stripped) as the box relies on an element of float in the drum to allow all gears to engage correctly and not load the forks. Certainly 0.5mm is not to much slack for the drum and I have seen greater with no issues. The selector forks are there to guide gears to engage so an element of float should not matter. The dogs are there to hold the gear in, so if the dogs are rounded, using the fork to hold the gear in place is a work around not a solution! I once found a race engine with no side shims on the drum with at least 1.5mm side play and amazingly the box had been working perfectly. So this kinda supports my theory, not that I would recommend that much float :)

Best Wishes Nigel

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby thatnameisal » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:27 pm

About the crank - I have it shimmed to 0.001 inches (which is about 0.03mm). Thank you for reminding me to double check!

The reason I am a bit turned up about the gearbox is (1) I forgot to measure before I took it apart and have no reference, (2) the new bearings have ALOT more play that the originals, and (3) I am using a gasket between the two case halfs, which was not there before dismantling.

My current gearbox clearances are:
- clutch axle: 0.016in (0.41mm)
- sprocket/drive axle: 0.041in (1.04mm) (from end to end)
- shifter drum: 0.016in (0.41mm)

Drum sounds like it is your described spec - what do you think of the rest?

LaceyDucati
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
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Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby LaceyDucati » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05 pm

Hi

The gearbox clearances sound quite normal especially the clutch and drum. I am not so familiar with the 160 box unlike the larger engines, so I will check the set up on a few motors I have in the workshop and the parts book and let you know. If it was a five speed engine I would say that all sounds fine.

I don't know why the gearbox bearings should have more side play! I use C3 fit bearings in the cases, which even these should have no real discernible play once installed. I have been told by a bearing manufacturer in the UK that some bearings have a lot more play than they should have. Not that I have experienced this myself, but then I only use FAG or SKF nowadays. There are of course other good bearing manufactures and I have used RHP, NSK, NTN and KOYO bearings in the past with no issues. I always avoid unmarked/unbranded bearings as to my mind if the company won't put there name on it,............

I'll get back to you tomorrow, after I have made some checks.

Nigel

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby thatnameisal » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:12 pm

All the bearings I used were SKF non-standard angular thrust bearings from my first post. ALL of them had a good 1mm play on the inner race

Thanks for getting back to me and thank you, in advance for checking tomorrow!

Jordan
Posts: 1471
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby Jordan » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:22 pm

Ducatis gearboxes are not famous for durability, and suffer from premature rounding of the dogs.
Dogs in good nick will draw themselves together under the influence of torque, even if only partly engaged. But this tends to stress the dogs' corners and round them off.
I was shown a method to compensate somewhat for it, by reducing the side play of individual gears, so that the forks push the dogs further into each other and relying less on the undercut angle for initial engagement.
Each gear can be adjusted, and a supply of shims is needed. I did it once, and it took me days, with many trial assemblies.
Cam drum etc need to be adjusted in the same process.

Jordan

LaceyDucati
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
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Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby LaceyDucati » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:33 am

Hi

Firstly, I have confirmed the set up in the 160 and the clearances you have seem normal for the design. Have you got the parts book to confirm you have all the original parts? If not I can scan a post the pages appropriate. May take a few days!

Secondly , I now understand the reason for side play, which is quite normal for an angular thrust bearing. However they are designed to be pushed/held in one direction, so the balls contact at a 40 degree (in this instance). It is normal to use them in pairs opposing each other as they are with the lower bevels. In the gearbox you need some side play to allow splash/mist lubrication to the gears, so In my opinion these bearings are not suited to this application and as they are not working as designed there would be no load rating advantage. They also cost much more than there standard single row equivalent. Further more once installed they may prove difficult to remove from a blind hole if they don't drop out with heat. This is because you can't load the inner race in the opposite direction either by drift or puller. If you do the inner race and cage will pop out. They are fine for the mains but personally I wouldn't bother as I have never had an issue with the single row bearings in 20 plus years of building engines.

To check a gearbox I always assemble in the cases with the crank removed and both shafts pulled into their bearings as run. You can then arrange a light in the cases (as it's dark in there!) and flick through the gears checking the side play and engagement of the dogs with a couple of long screwdrivers. Normally I would expect the dogs to engage at least half way, but normally tighter. There will always be a bit of side play/disengagement of the dogs but I wouldn't be able to give you an exact figure as it's more a "does that look right" check!

Yes I'm sure you can improve a worn box/selectors by shimming out side play on a road bike and keep things going for more time and limited cash input. But as I said "a work around" and ultimately the issue should be addressed with some better parts or even re-grinding the dogs or hard plating the forks. If the dogs are rounded enough it will just kick out under load whether the selector is holding it in tight or not. On a race bike or a hard used road bike if you restrict side play of the gears and in turn the oil feed / flow the gears will burn on the shafts and pick up.

Regards Nigel

Jordan
Posts: 1471
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby Jordan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:42 am

Keen Ducati enthusiasts I knew would open up new engines, to do the gearbox shimming to better than factory standard.
It was claimed to be a good thing for brand new gearboxes and also a fix for marginal worn ones.
Rule of thumb for serviceability of dogs was if they are not worn round more than one third of their width.

Jordan

LaceyDucati
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
Contact:

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby LaceyDucati » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Jordan

Third of the dog face! I'm obviously too fussy with my dogs :)

I'm hoping to get some new improved gears made especially aimed at road bikes as originals in good condition are getting thin on the ground, a project for next year! Plan is to start with 2nd and 3rd as they are the worst effected. Race bikes are already catered for and life with 3 dog well undercut gears in good material is bliss :)

Best Wishes Nigel

thatnameisal
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Gearbox shimming

Postby thatnameisal » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:34 pm

Nigel:

Thank you SO MUCH for checking motor(s) at your shop. I cant begin to tell you how appreciative I am that someone across the world would take the time to help out a perfect stranger.

As for the bearings...they are in and they are not coming out anytime soon. However, I will keep your notes in mind for next time.

I think I am going to shim out some clearance on the axles (due to the type of bearings used) and leave the selector drum alone.

Thank you all for your input.

FYI - There is a link to the 160 Spare Parts Catalogue here http://www.motoscrubs.com/Ducati_160_Monza_Jr_Parts_Catalogue_CI.htm

Cheers!


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