Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring

[wcorey]

" I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, "

____ Bruce's coils AND Ducati's, or what exactly ?

Bruce's rewinds.
I said I "removed the rotor to take a look at 'em", not "unwound 'em" so I assumed (since you can't just look at the inner's on the stock coils), that it was obvious which ones. Sorry for again not being crystal clear enough.

What's of MOST importance to know, is exactly HOW Ducati had all THEIR windings wound.

I'm not sacrificing any of mine by unwinding them, have six for testing on one stator and a totally stock 6 pole/4 coil one as a control, no spares.
I CAN tell you that the outer coils are wound in opposite directions (large ones go up to the right, small ones up to the left) but haven't figured out a way to test for which way the inner's go.
Any idea's there...?

...but yes, I'd like a (rather simple) test with the output of the tested power connected DIRECTLY-to the test-load.
That likely means test-loads of .25 to 5-ohms connected directly to the combined-output of both power-coils connected-together in series -(actually with the 2 winding-pairs in parallel/SERIES/parallel),, with NO other components involved with the test-circuit.

Straight AC with no rectification?
I already have some data with only a rec that I'll put up here/now.

I forgot that I had obtained a tachometer since the past alt mod thread, found that what I've been calling 3400 rpm is actually 3550 rpm

Test data from Bruce's two rewound coils, one 'large' and one 'small'.
Each are ‘double wound, connected in parallel’ and are connected to each other in series (parallel/SERIES/parallel).

3550 rpm, generic bridged rec (full rectification).

.5ohm----4a------2.2vdc------8.8w
1 ohm----3.7a----4.1vdc------15.2w
2 ohm----3.2a----6.9vdc------22.1w
3ohm----2.8a-----8.9vdc-----24.9w
4ohm----2.5a----10.2vdc-----25.5w
5ohm----2.2a----11.1vdc-----24.4w

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" I assumed (since you can't just look at the inner's on the stock coils), that it was obvious which ones. "

____ Sorry, I had forgotten that the stock winding-loops aren't as clearly visible.



" I'm not sacrificing any of mine by unwinding them, "

____ That's fine, cuz Bruce has already done-so before and probably will again.



" I CAN tell you that the outer coils are wound in opposite directions "

____ Great, as that's all we need to know !
Apparently then, Ducati must've determined that the star-core's field-concentration is kept most harmoniously-organized by having ALL the power-coils flowing their current-flows coherently in the very-SAME direction, (which couldn't be done unless every-other core-finger holds a coil-winding that's oppositely-wound from it's neighboring-coils).



" but haven't figured out a way to test for which way the inner's go. "

____ One thing I well recall is that Bruce had made the point that both inner & outer stock dual-windings were actually wound in like-directions !



" Any idea's there...? "

____ Well if it was important, you could use a compass to check for polarity while running a slight amount of DC.juice through just the outer-winding, and then-next, through just the inner-winding. _ And if both tests attract the same needle-pole of the compass, then you know both windings are wound in the same direction.



" Straight AC with no rectification? "

____ Well yes, providing that you happen to have a trustworthy AC.amp-meter.
__ Otherwise results such as you've posted will be okay, so long as you have more than one FW.rect-block which yield identical test-results.
(As I'd be so very pleased to learn that you've found another rect.block, of-which IT's output managed to [logically !] match the output of your [mysterious] mosfet-R/R.unit !)



" I forgot that I had obtained a tachometer since the past alt mod thread, found that what I've been calling 3400 rpm is actually 3550 rpm "

____ That revelation seems familiar, perhaps you've mentioned that once before ?
__ Anyhow, I'd trust the manufacturer's claims stated on the motor, before the reading of a tach.



" I already have some data with only a rec that I'll put up here/now.
Test data from Bruce's two rewound coils, one 'large' and one 'small'.
Each are ‘double wound, connected in parallel’ and are connected to each other in series (parallel/SERIES/parallel).
3550 rpm, generic bridged rec (full rectification). "

____ Thanks for being thoroughly-clear about exactly-what your test-results were actually taken from ! _ (As it prevents the reader from having to 'assume' !)

.5ohm----4a------2.2vdc------8.8w
1 ohm----3.7a----4.1vdc------15.2w
2 ohm----3.2a----6.9vdc------22.1w
3ohm----2.8a-----8.9vdc-----24.9w
4ohm----2.5a----10.2vdc-----25.5w
5ohm----2.2a----11.1vdc-----24.4w

____ This type of data is pretty-much exactly what we need to determine available-power and the load-resistance needed to acquire it all.
The 4-ohm test-value seems to be the optimum-load resistance-level for coaxing-out max.power, (although disappointingly only about 1/3rd of what I had expected).
__ Those power-results are about what I had expected for the (originally intended) prime power-winding, except that the listed voltage-readings are less than half what I would've expected, considering the extended lengths of the windings.
While those voltage-level figures look to be rather suited for 6v.systems and unable to charge a 12v.battery,, it should be kept in mind that those voltage-levels are actually RMS.averaged-out, and-thus the 'peak' voltage-levels are really 141.4% higher ! _ So thus (for example), the listed "8.9vdc"
actually peaks at '12.6' volts, which will keep a 12v.battery charged.


Hopeful-Cheers,
D.Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" from the south pole( of the core) see the
spool winding counter-clockwise away from you...( look down the hole that the core fills)
Now from the north pole (of core) see the
winding clockwise toward you... "

____ Seems to be a 'play' on words, as it implies it's point effectively as-if employing a double-negative. ...
It's unfair to ALSO change the perspective, in attempt to obtain the goal of proving a direction-reversal due-to a simple 180-flip !



" Remember, it doesn't matter where the winding starts, "

____ True BUT, it does matter which DIRECTION it starts-out at !



" it's the way the current flows. "

____ Indeed-so ! _ But ALSO, besides back & forth in flow-direction, it's also the left or right directional-orientation that makes an EQUAL North-or-South difference !



" I slept 8 hours, and, oh! It's still the same... "

____ Perhaps YOUR-conception was still the same for you, but I had hoped that a good night's sleep would've helped you to see how my 'screw' analogy is so very-VALID as it actually IS !



Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Bob says;"____ Seems to be a 'play' on words, as it implies it's point effectively as-if employing a double-negative. ...
It's unfair to ALSO change the perspective, in attempt to obtain the goal of proving a direction-reversal due-to a simple 180-flip ! "

Bob, I was trying to get you to agree with Bill that no matter how it's wound, you can manipulate the wires to get the polarity you need. The "concept I've been presenting to you ( clockwise vs. counter-clockwise) IS the direction of the FLOW of current...
I'm afraid you're so eager to prove me wrong, that you can't take the direction I'm trying to lead you. Of course I know about left-hand and right hand windings, but no matter how the windings are put on the bobbins, the electric connections will always determine the polarity. Turning around the spool only in effect swaps the wire connections, just trying to get you to look at it differently... thus the "play on words".
I had a whole dissertation prepared to show you how the electro magnet fields can be manipulated with a battery and a coil wound on a nail, but no point, you've covered most of it, all but the graphic you last posted, you just flipped the picture instead of flipping the coil on the core. It's different, you know.

When my son was in kindergarten, ( he's now 35) he & I made an electric motor from his lego's for him to take to school for "show&tell", it ran from a couple D cell batteries. Wish I had a photo of that one to show you.

On to something more productive, please,

Bruce

[graeme]

"When my son was in kindergarten, ( he's now 35) he & I made an electric motor from his lego's for him to take to school for "show&tell", it ran from a couple D cell batteries. Wish I had a photo of that one to show you."

Now youre talking about something I do understand....

From all these pages and posts, would it not be easier to buy one of the aftermarket alternator kits available?
I realise this is good brain food, but a lot of energy has been expended and I haven't seen (or understood) a worthwhile outcome?

I'll go back in the corner again now

Graeme

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= graeme ...
" would it not be easier to buy one of the aftermarket alternator kits available? "

____ For most of those who work hard for their money,, I think they'd find it a lot more fun to rewind their very-own stator, than to do all the work they'd need to complete in order to earn all the money they'd need to purchase such a kit as you've mention of.
__ Now if YOU're-buying, THEN they all might agree that your idea is indeed easier than the fun of rewinding their-own stator.


Continued-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ....
" Bob, I was trying to get you to agree with Bill that no matter how it's wound, you can manipulate the wires to get the polarity you need. "

____ But what ever led you to think that I didn't already agree with that (rather quite common basic-knowledge) ??
I wasn't as young as your son was,, but by age-10, I was then playing with wire-wrapped nails and C & D-cells, and measuring magnetic-strength according to how many paperclips the electromagnetic-nail could possibly pick-up in a consecutive-chain, (under power & also with battery disconnected).
__ So OF-COURSE the very-BASIC notion of simply reversing the flow of current so as to flip-over the polarity of a coil, is certainly quite an ELEMENTARY-conception for the likes of myself !



" The "concept I've been presenting to you ( clockwise vs. counter-clockwise) IS the direction of the FLOW of current... "

____ Of-course I realized that in SOME of your post-wordings,, but I had assumed that you must've also been trying to say other than that as well, because you continued-on even after I had made my case fairly apparent.


" I'm afraid you're so eager to prove me wrong, "

____ It hasn't at-all been my intention to prove you wrong Bruce,, however, my intention has rather been to get you to see things as I do.



" that you can't take the direction I'm trying to lead you. "

____ But it now seems that you've been trying to lead me to see something that's already quite well understood... Sort-of like trying to tell me that I could get a result of 4 by adding 2 & 2 together.
You should've realized that I'D already be quite aware of such very-basic building-blocks !
__ As I've pointed-out to others before -- if anything I've stated doesn't seem to logically add-up to the reader's thought-process, then the reader-himself should suspect his-own conceived-interpretations, rather than my intended-conception points.



" Of course I know about left-hand and right hand windings, but no matter how the windings are put on the bobbins, the electric connections will always determine the polarity. "

____ Yes, of-course,, in a simple 2-dimensional world, that's all that would need to be considered.
__ At-least Bill seems to have grasped & understood the additional concern that I've had about the varied resulting mag.fields and their good or bad effect for coherently-consolidated fields which are all combined-together within the main-core of star-core.



" Turning around the spool only in effect swaps the wire connections, "

____ It seems that you've certainly failed to conceive the concern I've had for why it's really-NOT so very-SIMPLE as merely-just that ! ...
Simply swapping-around the wire-connections to reverse the current-flow so that the coil's polarization is then reversed, does-not properly address ALL the 3-dimentional mag.field effects ! ...
__ Maybe you had read right-past my previous-attempt to convey the star-core polarization concern that I've had, so here's another attempt.
Imagine the (otherwise invisible) mag.fields rotating along-with the current flowing-through the coiled-windings... If ALL-6 of the coil-windings were wound either right-hand (or all left-hand),, then as the mag.rotor spins it's N & S poles, the generated fields of the coils under the influence of the rotor's S.poles would then rotate in the OPPOSITE-direction of the rotating fields under the N.poles, (much-like six meshed gears all rotating together, on the six core-fingers).
Now apparently Ducati determined that rather than that-relationship, it's better to have all-six fields set-up to rotate ALL in the SAME-direction (instead of having half opposed),, so they chose to wind every-other coil-winding oppositely from the neighboring coils (simply to compensate for the fact that every-other mag.pole is a N.pole [or S.pole] ). _ And you must understand that the other-option of simply reversing the interconnecting wire-connections (between the neighboring-coils) so-as to compensate, is-NOT a valid-option/fix,, because THAT would thus-then cause the power of the three small-coils to attempt cancelling that of the large-coils !
__ So why even CARE to address this seemingly non-issue (of virtually-meshed coil-fields), you may next ask ?
Well apparently it's done out of concern for keeping all the N & S fields (which get concentrated within the star-core), all coherently-arranged in rather correlated harmonious concert (instead of any potentially canceling-opposition). _ Cuz otherwise, the beneficial-effect of the core would then be diminished.



" just trying to get you to look at it differently... "

____ I don't see where I'd need to do that, (as I'm usually an omnidirectional-thinker).
However, it seems that YOU need-to see what you've apparently been overlooking.



" I had a whole dissertation prepared to show you how the electro magnet fields can be manipulated with a battery and a coil wound on a nail, but no point, you've covered most of it, all but the graphic you last posted, you just flipped the picture instead of flipping the coil on the core. "

____ But simply "flipping the coil on the core" would make no difference because the turns-direction is still the same.
__ Have you not been considering BOTH the (primary)- magnetic-fields of the mag.rotor AND those (secondary)- fields caused by the flow of current through the coils ?



" It's different, you know. "

____ Exactly in what-way, are you thinking so ?



When my son was in kindergarten, ( he's now 35) he & I made an electric motor from his lego's for him to take to school for "show&tell", it ran from a couple D cell batteries. Wish I had a photo of that one to show you. "

____ What do you think it could show me ?



" On to something more productive, please, "

____ Okay then, how about this following stuff ? ...
____ Perhaps since the pair of coils under testing have shown indications of being more suited as the 'prime-winding' (than had been expected), we thusly ought-to reconsider the level of robustness intended for the expected aux.power-coils. _ And-so rather than experiment with what seems to be reasonably suitable gauge-sizes, instead work with the established stock wire-gauge (which Bill had worked with to obtain the impressive results he found).
__ So since you've revealed indication that it's rather un-difficult to possibly fit fairly significant additional wire-length around the stock bobbins (without switching-over to a thinner gauge), I thusly now have a NEW-plan...
Rather than winding 'dual' windings like Ducati did, or 'double' windings like you have,, we could instead try to wind 'TWIN' windings !? ...
__ While I don't have any explanation for why 'dual' or 'double' or 'twin' type windings should possibly yield differing test-results,, just to help make-sure that possible differing factors don't get any chance to come-into play, we could work-with the same 20-gauge wire-size and (unlike with the stock dual-windings), try to get TWO identical windings wound SEPARATELY on EACH bobbin. _ THAT-way, we can then simply-double the number of stock-like power-windings per stator-pole ! _ Which we very-well KNOW will thusly accordingly-double the total power-output !
__ However Bruce, do you think you could possibly get two separate winding-coils wound side-by-side onto the bobbins, (rather-than the paired -['doubled' type] wire-windings wound side-by-side together, as you've already tried & done) ?
I actually don't think that twin-coil windings (side-by-side on ONE bobbin) would produce power any differently than equivalent 'doubled-windings' (wound as just ONE winding-coil per bobbin),, but since the tested 'double-wound' power-coils have yielded such disappointing test-results, it's fairly reasonable to try power-windings which are more-like that of the stock-type -(which unfortunately can't be exactly 'matched' in their 'dual' configuration, [like the 'twin' configuration indeed CAN be !] ).
And also, in this 'twin' winding-coil configuration, there's then the option of winding both individual coils either in the same-direction (like the double-windings), or wound in opposed directions. ...
And the reasoning for choosing to wind the paired coils in opposite directions from each-other, is so that the secondary-mag.fields (which the power-coils produce), will then cancel-out each other,, thus-then leaving only-just the primary-mag.fields of the mag.rotor alone, left to solely magnetize the stator/star-core, (which should allow purified rotor-mag.fields to work alone within the core).
__ So my new proposed power-coil scheme would be to wind TWO separate individual winding-coils (placed right-next to one-another) on each bobbin, with 6 to 8 layers of #20-gauge wire.
That-way we can then surely be quite CERTAIN to achieve (at-least) a 50% increase in power (over that of the stock power-coils), since there will then effectively be TWO independent power-windings per bobbin/spool (with EACH producing at-least 25% [apiece] more power than a stock power-coil) !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

From all these pages and posts, would it not be easier to buy one of the aftermarket alternator kits available?

Where's the fun in that?
Some people just buy a bike, for all the money, already done up the way they want it. Others start with a rusty old barn find and build it from the ground up on a shoestring budget. And everything in between.

I realise this is good brain food, but a lot of energy has been expended and I haven't seen (or understood) a worthwhile outcome?

Maybe you haven't read enough?
If you follow the links provided earlier in this thread, on this forum you'll find all the info you need to meet or even exceed the output of the ready made aftermarket ones.
Not gift wrapped and handed to you on a lovely platter though...

[graeme]

I'll read again Bill when I have time. My comments weren't meant to put shit on your experiments and findings, please don't get me wrong.
I would rather fix something than buy new too. All my bikes were full rebuilds and I know what I'm capable of (and what I'm not)
But sometimes it works out cheaper to buy a part that is made by someone that is set up to make those parts.
I do work hard for my money, but if I were to buy the wire and spend the time to rewind an alternator it would possibly cost me more than buying a marketed item and work for the money to pay for it. (at a job where I know what I'm doing)

edit, and the bought item would probably prove to do a better job than an alternator rewound by me.


Like I said, I'll go back in the corner again.

Graeme

[ecurbruce]

Bob says;"____ What do you think it could show me ? "

Nothing to learn there, Bob, just some creative application

Bruce