[quote= ecurbruce ...
" think about it this way "
____ LOL, I'm not the only one who has to think-twice about this brain-teaser stuff.
" If you remove the wound spool from the stator core, rotate it 180 degrees, "
____ Did you really mean "rotate", or actually 'flip-around' 180 ?
" reinstall it onto it's core, it's now wound the opposite direction, "
____ If Bill somehow succeeds at that, then he might consider going-into business doing the same with screws so as to magically convert them into LEFT-hand threaded versions.
__ No matter whether ya 'rotate' ; 'flip-around' ; 'flip-over' ; 'reverse' ; or 'turn up-side-down' 180-degrees or ANY-other angle, right-hand or left-hand windings will still remain unchanged from that which it originally was !
" Then reverse the wire connections from where they were before removal of spool to make the electric flow the same as it was before you removed it... "
____ But that connection-change would ACTUALLY end-up causing it's current-flow to be reversed from that which it was before !
" just look at it, I can see it from here... "
____ Try going to sleep for at least 6-hours, then wake-up fully,, and THEN see if you can STILL "see it" . _ (That's what I often have to do, these later-days in life.)
Just shrug-away any embarrassment.
" (Sorry, Bob, posting while you're posting) "
____ That's never a concern Bruce !
It may only be a slight issue if you happen to quote wording that I've left posted in error (before I've noted & corrected it).
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
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Altering RIGHThand-turns into LEFThand-turns
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
If you remove the wound spool from the stator core, rotate it 180 degrees, reinstall it onto it's core, it's now wound the opposite direction, relative to the core.
No, it's not. Try it, take a piece of solder or a baggie tie (something that will hold it's shape) and coil it, make the ends terminate toward the same side, then flip it upside down. No difference.
You could of course leave the connections intact, then I believe the polarity would be opposite.
<Edit>Oops, Looks like I just did it too, (posting before reading Bob's).
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
Bill says;"No, it's not. Try it, take a piece of solder or a baggie tie (something that will hold it's shape) and coil it, make the ends terminate toward the same side, then flip it upside down. No difference."
Bill, don't start- looking from the new top, look from where I started the wind, it goes the other way!
Bruce
Bill, don't start- looking from the new top, look from where I started the wind, it goes the other way!
Bruce
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Altering RIGHThand-turns into LEFThand-turns
[quote= ecurbruce ...
" don't start- looking from the new top, look from where I started the wind, it goes the other way! "
____ Bruce, you really should've read (& understood) MY post, before going-ahead & posting any further on this issue which you've brought-up.
____ That's the same as taking a resting screw which had it's head orientated on it's left-side/end and then-next flipping it around so that the screw is then rested with it's head repositioned towards it's right-side/end...
That 180-degree reorientation does-NOT change the fact that the screw is STILL a right-hand threaded version !
__ I suppose it's a GOOD-thing that if ya ever happen to drop a box of screws onto the grass-covered ground, that ya still never have-to worry about any of them possibly landing in some odd position that somehow causes their right-hand threads to become left-hand threaded.
____ Sorry for any resulted embarrassment (you may feel after you've had a good sleep-period) !
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
" don't start- looking from the new top, look from where I started the wind, it goes the other way! "
____ Bruce, you really should've read (& understood) MY post, before going-ahead & posting any further on this issue which you've brought-up.
____ That's the same as taking a resting screw which had it's head orientated on it's left-side/end and then-next flipping it around so that the screw is then rested with it's head repositioned towards it's right-side/end...
That 180-degree reorientation does-NOT change the fact that the screw is STILL a right-hand threaded version !
__ I suppose it's a GOOD-thing that if ya ever happen to drop a box of screws onto the grass-covered ground, that ya still never have-to worry about any of them possibly landing in some odd position that somehow causes their right-hand threads to become left-hand threaded.
____ Sorry for any resulted embarrassment (you may feel after you've had a good sleep-period) !
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
Bill, don't start- looking from the new top, look from where I started the wind, it goes the other way!
I seem to be possibly missing a lot here.
I'm not questioning your rewound coils direction, only the statement you made about flipping them to reverse things.
Are you (just now) telling us you wound the two coils in opposite directions or did that already happen earlier in the thread?
'Cause if you're just getting to it now... would've saved a bunch of speculation if you informed us sooner, lol...
I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, so that's that!
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
Bob says;"____ That's the same as taking a resting screw which had it's head orientated on it's left-side/end and then-next flipping it around so that the screw is then rested with it's head repositioned towards it's right-side/end...
That 180-degree reorientation does-NOT change the fact that the screw is STILL a right-hand threaded version ! "
The screw- not a real good analogy,,, it is not a cylindrical shape that can be flipped on a core,,, but if that screw needing to be removed from a nut, is grasped by the shank from the back-side of said nut and screwed in clock-wise from the back-side of the nut - will come out the front side where it should have been screwed out counter- clockwise. (Same threads).
So think outside the box with me for a minute...
Let's say Bill is standing at the top of a spiral staircase and Bob from the other side of the room sees Bill walk down the stairs in a clockwise spiral down to the bottom.
Then lets say Bruce comes along and inverts the entire staircase, and the top tread is now laying upside-down on the bottom floor...
Now Bob can see Bill carefully walk down the upside-down stair case on the inverted treads from top to bottom in a clock-wise direction.
Now if Bill could defy gravity, and start at the bottom, Bob would see Bill walk upside-down on the correct surface of the inverted treads from the bottom floor to the top floor in a counter-clockwise direction. (Relative to Bob's ((the core)) perspective)
A length of wire, with electric current applied, has a ( field) around the length of it. When organized in a spiral fashion around an iron core, it organizes into a magnetic field with a negative and positive pole. Just like the earth, spinning clockwise, the north pole will be at the top-(on a map). If you spin the wire on clockwise, north is at the top. It doesn't matter how that wire got on that core, as long as the current flows clockwise- the wire can start at the top, the bottom, in the middle, doesn't matter. It's the current flow, not the wind. If you start the current flow at the end of the coil that proceeds in a counter-clockwise wind, the poles will change ends. The wind can start on the outside, or inside, the top, or bottom, still doesn't matter as long as the current flows clockwise for north, counter-clockwise for south.
Bill says;"
Are you (just now) telling us you wound the two coils in opposite directions or did that already happen earlier in the thread?
'Cause if you're just getting to it now... would've saved a bunch of speculation if you informed us sooner, lol...
I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, so that's that!"
Yea, I went back and looked at the photos, I have no explaination, that was not intentional. Don't know what to say, oops?
Bruce
That 180-degree reorientation does-NOT change the fact that the screw is STILL a right-hand threaded version ! "
The screw- not a real good analogy,,, it is not a cylindrical shape that can be flipped on a core,,, but if that screw needing to be removed from a nut, is grasped by the shank from the back-side of said nut and screwed in clock-wise from the back-side of the nut - will come out the front side where it should have been screwed out counter- clockwise. (Same threads).
So think outside the box with me for a minute...
Let's say Bill is standing at the top of a spiral staircase and Bob from the other side of the room sees Bill walk down the stairs in a clockwise spiral down to the bottom.
Then lets say Bruce comes along and inverts the entire staircase, and the top tread is now laying upside-down on the bottom floor...
Now Bob can see Bill carefully walk down the upside-down stair case on the inverted treads from top to bottom in a clock-wise direction.
Now if Bill could defy gravity, and start at the bottom, Bob would see Bill walk upside-down on the correct surface of the inverted treads from the bottom floor to the top floor in a counter-clockwise direction. (Relative to Bob's ((the core)) perspective)
A length of wire, with electric current applied, has a ( field) around the length of it. When organized in a spiral fashion around an iron core, it organizes into a magnetic field with a negative and positive pole. Just like the earth, spinning clockwise, the north pole will be at the top-(on a map). If you spin the wire on clockwise, north is at the top. It doesn't matter how that wire got on that core, as long as the current flows clockwise- the wire can start at the top, the bottom, in the middle, doesn't matter. It's the current flow, not the wind. If you start the current flow at the end of the coil that proceeds in a counter-clockwise wind, the poles will change ends. The wind can start on the outside, or inside, the top, or bottom, still doesn't matter as long as the current flows clockwise for north, counter-clockwise for south.
Bill says;"
Are you (just now) telling us you wound the two coils in opposite directions or did that already happen earlier in the thread?
'Cause if you're just getting to it now... would've saved a bunch of speculation if you informed us sooner, lol...
I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, so that's that!"
Yea, I went back and looked at the photos, I have no explaination, that was not intentional. Don't know what to say, oops?
Bruce
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
The screw- not a real good analogy,,, it is not a cylindrical shape that can be flipped on a core
Unless it IS a cylinder, just drill a hole in it...

...Bob would see Bill walk upside-down on the correct surface of the inverted treads...
I only envision an Escher drawing... You description only exemplifies to me how reversing the connections to the coil changes the polarity.
Since you obviously haven't made yourself a coil as I suggested...
Coil one way.

Coil flipped the other way. Difference?

So where were we, previous to this sideshow?
Bob, again, did you still want some particular test before I reduce the number of windings?
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
Bill says;"Since you obviously haven't made yourself a coil as I suggested..."
OH, never saw that before
Ok, one last time, from the south pole( of the core) see the solder comming off of the spool winding counter-clockwise away from you...( look down the hole that the core fills)
Now from the north pole (of core) see the solder comming off the spool and winding clockwise toward you...
Remember, it doesn't matter where the winding starts,
(And here's the whole point of this exercise) it's the way the current flows. Bill, I think you got that!
You have to admit, the stairs analogy was a fun read, huh?
I slept 8 hours, and, oh! It's still the same...
Bruce (or some alien that's taken over the left side of my brain)
OH, never saw that before

Ok, one last time, from the south pole( of the core) see the solder comming off of the spool winding counter-clockwise away from you...( look down the hole that the core fills)
Now from the north pole (of core) see the solder comming off the spool and winding clockwise toward you...
Remember, it doesn't matter where the winding starts,
(And here's the whole point of this exercise) it's the way the current flows. Bill, I think you got that!
You have to admit, the stairs analogy was a fun read, huh?
I slept 8 hours, and, oh! It's still the same...
Bruce (or some alien that's taken over the left side of my brain)
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BASIC-test of Winding-layers
[quote= wcorey ...
" would've saved a bunch of speculation if you informed us sooner, "
____ However I believe much of the speculation has caused some worthy related-things to be contemplated, that otherwise would've been skipped-by.
" I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, "
____ Bruce's coils AND Ducati's, or what exactly ?
What's of MOST importance to know, is exactly HOW Ducati had all THEIR windings wound.
" Bob, again, did you still want some particular test before I reduce the number of windings? "
____ That you had found that you had caps involved with the test-circuit, has reduced the need to delay the change,, but yes, I'd like a (rather simple) test with the output of the tested power connected DIRECTLY-to the test-load.
That likely means test-loads of .25 to 5-ohms connected directly to the combined-output of both power-coils connected-together in series -(actually with the 2 winding-pairs in parallel/SERIES/parallel),, with NO other components involved with the test-circuit.
And also specific note recorded of the particular resistance-value of the test-load which attained the highest power-level (with amperage & voltage noted).
__ THEN-next, the same basic-testing done with a couple layers of Bruce's windings cut-off, and the resulting optimum-load including the same relevant test-result figures, (so that we-all can compare the before & after test-results).
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
" would've saved a bunch of speculation if you informed us sooner, "
____ However I believe much of the speculation has caused some worthy related-things to be contemplated, that otherwise would've been skipped-by.
" I just went and removed the rotor to take a look at 'em and sure enough, they're wound opposite, "
____ Bruce's coils AND Ducati's, or what exactly ?
What's of MOST importance to know, is exactly HOW Ducati had all THEIR windings wound.
" Bob, again, did you still want some particular test before I reduce the number of windings? "
____ That you had found that you had caps involved with the test-circuit, has reduced the need to delay the change,, but yes, I'd like a (rather simple) test with the output of the tested power connected DIRECTLY-to the test-load.
That likely means test-loads of .25 to 5-ohms connected directly to the combined-output of both power-coils connected-together in series -(actually with the 2 winding-pairs in parallel/SERIES/parallel),, with NO other components involved with the test-circuit.
And also specific note recorded of the particular resistance-value of the test-load which attained the highest power-level (with amperage & voltage noted).
__ THEN-next, the same basic-testing done with a couple layers of Bruce's windings cut-off, and the resulting optimum-load including the same relevant test-result figures, (so that we-all can compare the before & after test-results).
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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Re: Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring
[quote= ecurbruce ...
" The screw- not a real good analogy,,, "
____ On the CONTRARY Bruce, the RIGHT-hand & LEFT-hand threads of my screw-analogy is a near-PERFECT analogy ! ... As the threads themselves OBVIOUSLY represent the wire-windings around anything even remotely shaped like a screw-shaft or a squared-core !
" it is not a cylindrical shape that can be flipped on a core,,, "
____ So what difference does that actually make ? _ That doesn't really matter, as such concern is rather quite irrelevant as a valid counterpoint.
If it helps you somehow,, then instead of whatever 'screw' you had thought-of, rather imagine a 2-inch hollow-shaft with right-hand threads on one-end and left-hand threads on it's other-end.
" but if that screw needing to be removed from a nut, is grasped by the shank from the back-side of said nut and screwed in clock-wise from the back-side of the nut - will come out the front side where it should have been screwed out counter- clockwise. (Same threads). "
____ That's pretty-much the same conception-scenario as a man & wife arguing about which way a screw is actually turning through a wall, when the man is screwing the screw all the way through while his wife watches it come-out the other side... He KNOWS that he's turning the screw 'clockwise', yet his wife swears at him that the screw is definitely coming-through turning 'COUNTER-clockwise' !
__ So Bruce, would you have us believe that the screw somehow switched it's turning-direction somewhere within the wall ? _ Or perhaps if that screw in the wall was removed and the WIFE screwed it back-in from HER-side, that it would THEN go-into the wall still turning counter-clockwise like she had before witnessed ?
Well of-course not,, cuz as either way ya look at it, the directional-turning of the screw actually always remains UNCHANGED, no matter which way ya look at it from !
__ So therefore, likewise,, when considering a winding's established 'direction',
turning it around 180 degrees does-NOT change it from being a 'right-hand winding' into becoming a 'left-hand winding' !
" So think outside the box with me for a minute... "
____ But that's the problem Bruce, in this case you rather need to try thinking IN the box !
" Let's say Bill is standing at the top of a spiral staircase and Bob from the other side of the room sees Bill walk down the stairs in a clockwise spiral down to the bottom.
Then lets say Bruce comes along and inverts the entire staircase, and the top tread is now laying upside-down on the bottom floor...
Now Bob can see Bill carefully walk down the upside-down stair case on the inverted treads from top to bottom in a clock-wise direction.
Now if Bill could defy gravity, and start at the bottom, Bob would see Bill walk upside-down on the correct surface of the inverted treads from the bottom floor to the top floor in a counter-clockwise direction. (Relative to Bob's ((the core)) perspective) "
____ You ought-to realize that if 'perspective' is what makes a really-valid difference, then how can two completely different directions both be validly occurring at the same-time whenever both perspectives are being concurrently witnessed ? _ So obviously, 'clockwise' is a relative term that doesn't mean any specifically locked-in circumstance, (unlike right-handed & left-handed threads, which are ALWAYS locked-in to a specific order) !
__ In the less-recent past, I've been letting the use of the terminology "clockwise" & "counterclockwise" go-by without concern because I had assumed it was a valid enough conception to be adequately applicable for our particular use. _ But you've since proven that that's not quite completely true,, as those two terms are certainly overly-dependent on 'perspective' ! ...
__ Imagine a transparent clock on a glass-wall between two rooms,, as someone in one room sees the clock's hands turn clockwise, somebody in the other room will see the hands turn counter-clockwise !
Therefore the clock's hands, (and-also in relation to a winding on a coil), there's actually NO DIFFERENCE between 'clockwise' & 'counterclockwise' !! _ As from the clock's-OWN perspective -(the ONLY perspective that really counts !), it's hands obviously don't actually turn in an OPPOSITE-direction (from normal), simply depending upon the viewer's particular perspective !
So just like threads on a screw, the SET-direction does-NOT actually change, NO-matter HOW ya look at it !
" A length of wire, with electric current applied, has a ( field) around the length of it. When organized in a spiral fashion around an iron core, it organizes into a magnetic field with a negative and positive pole.
If you spin the wire on clockwise, north is at the top. It doesn't matter how that wire got on that core, as long as the current flows clockwise- the wire can start at the top, the bottom, in the middle, doesn't matter. It's the current flow, not the wind. "
____ ACTUALLY, it can equally be EITHER the direction that the current flows OR the direction of the WIND ! ...
The polarity-locations of the N.pole & S.pole not only depend on the direction that the DC.juice is connected to flow, but ALSO on whether the winding is right-hand or left-hand orientated !!
__ If you still have some wire leftover to wind-around a couple of suitably sized nails,, then with a battery connected, you could then easily prove that fact for yourself !
The green-statement seems plausible to me,, however the red-statement seems as if it MAY be indicating that the 'direction' of a winding makes no difference on the resulted polar-locations of the N & S poles. ...
While it's certainly true that all those listed aspects are-not relevant to polarization-orientation,, whether the winding starts-out going-to the right or the left, indeed IS relevant !
__ So rather than rack you brain any further with clock-perspectives,, prove the facts to yourself one way or another, by performing the child's-play of creating electro-magnets with wire-wrapped nails.
" I went back and looked at the photos, I have no explaination, that was not intentional. Don't know what to say, oops? "
____ Did you forget that you had expected to wind your windings orientated just as Ducati had done ?
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
" The screw- not a real good analogy,,, "
____ On the CONTRARY Bruce, the RIGHT-hand & LEFT-hand threads of my screw-analogy is a near-PERFECT analogy ! ... As the threads themselves OBVIOUSLY represent the wire-windings around anything even remotely shaped like a screw-shaft or a squared-core !
" it is not a cylindrical shape that can be flipped on a core,,, "
____ So what difference does that actually make ? _ That doesn't really matter, as such concern is rather quite irrelevant as a valid counterpoint.
If it helps you somehow,, then instead of whatever 'screw' you had thought-of, rather imagine a 2-inch hollow-shaft with right-hand threads on one-end and left-hand threads on it's other-end.
" but if that screw needing to be removed from a nut, is grasped by the shank from the back-side of said nut and screwed in clock-wise from the back-side of the nut - will come out the front side where it should have been screwed out counter- clockwise. (Same threads). "
____ That's pretty-much the same conception-scenario as a man & wife arguing about which way a screw is actually turning through a wall, when the man is screwing the screw all the way through while his wife watches it come-out the other side... He KNOWS that he's turning the screw 'clockwise', yet his wife swears at him that the screw is definitely coming-through turning 'COUNTER-clockwise' !
__ So Bruce, would you have us believe that the screw somehow switched it's turning-direction somewhere within the wall ? _ Or perhaps if that screw in the wall was removed and the WIFE screwed it back-in from HER-side, that it would THEN go-into the wall still turning counter-clockwise like she had before witnessed ?
Well of-course not,, cuz as either way ya look at it, the directional-turning of the screw actually always remains UNCHANGED, no matter which way ya look at it from !
__ So therefore, likewise,, when considering a winding's established 'direction',
turning it around 180 degrees does-NOT change it from being a 'right-hand winding' into becoming a 'left-hand winding' !
" So think outside the box with me for a minute... "
____ But that's the problem Bruce, in this case you rather need to try thinking IN the box !
" Let's say Bill is standing at the top of a spiral staircase and Bob from the other side of the room sees Bill walk down the stairs in a clockwise spiral down to the bottom.
Then lets say Bruce comes along and inverts the entire staircase, and the top tread is now laying upside-down on the bottom floor...
Now Bob can see Bill carefully walk down the upside-down stair case on the inverted treads from top to bottom in a clock-wise direction.
Now if Bill could defy gravity, and start at the bottom, Bob would see Bill walk upside-down on the correct surface of the inverted treads from the bottom floor to the top floor in a counter-clockwise direction. (Relative to Bob's ((the core)) perspective) "
____ You ought-to realize that if 'perspective' is what makes a really-valid difference, then how can two completely different directions both be validly occurring at the same-time whenever both perspectives are being concurrently witnessed ? _ So obviously, 'clockwise' is a relative term that doesn't mean any specifically locked-in circumstance, (unlike right-handed & left-handed threads, which are ALWAYS locked-in to a specific order) !
__ In the less-recent past, I've been letting the use of the terminology "clockwise" & "counterclockwise" go-by without concern because I had assumed it was a valid enough conception to be adequately applicable for our particular use. _ But you've since proven that that's not quite completely true,, as those two terms are certainly overly-dependent on 'perspective' ! ...
__ Imagine a transparent clock on a glass-wall between two rooms,, as someone in one room sees the clock's hands turn clockwise, somebody in the other room will see the hands turn counter-clockwise !
Therefore the clock's hands, (and-also in relation to a winding on a coil), there's actually NO DIFFERENCE between 'clockwise' & 'counterclockwise' !! _ As from the clock's-OWN perspective -(the ONLY perspective that really counts !), it's hands obviously don't actually turn in an OPPOSITE-direction (from normal), simply depending upon the viewer's particular perspective !
So just like threads on a screw, the SET-direction does-NOT actually change, NO-matter HOW ya look at it !
" A length of wire, with electric current applied, has a ( field) around the length of it. When organized in a spiral fashion around an iron core, it organizes into a magnetic field with a negative and positive pole.
If you spin the wire on clockwise, north is at the top. It doesn't matter how that wire got on that core, as long as the current flows clockwise- the wire can start at the top, the bottom, in the middle, doesn't matter. It's the current flow, not the wind. "
____ ACTUALLY, it can equally be EITHER the direction that the current flows OR the direction of the WIND ! ...
The polarity-locations of the N.pole & S.pole not only depend on the direction that the DC.juice is connected to flow, but ALSO on whether the winding is right-hand or left-hand orientated !!
__ If you still have some wire leftover to wind-around a couple of suitably sized nails,, then with a battery connected, you could then easily prove that fact for yourself !
____ Those two statements seem as if they could possibly be contradictory.If you start the current flow at the end of the coil that proceeds in a counter-clockwise wind, the poles will change ends. "
" The wind can start on the outside, or inside, the top, or bottom, still doesn't matter as long as the current flows clockwise for north, counter-clockwise for south. "
The green-statement seems plausible to me,, however the red-statement seems as if it MAY be indicating that the 'direction' of a winding makes no difference on the resulted polar-locations of the N & S poles. ...
While it's certainly true that all those listed aspects are-not relevant to polarization-orientation,, whether the winding starts-out going-to the right or the left, indeed IS relevant !
__ So rather than rack you brain any further with clock-perspectives,, prove the facts to yourself one way or another, by performing the child's-play of creating electro-magnets with wire-wrapped nails.
" I went back and looked at the photos, I have no explaination, that was not intentional. Don't know what to say, oops? "
____ Did you forget that you had expected to wind your windings orientated just as Ducati had done ?
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
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