Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring

[wcorey]

[quote= wcorey ...
" ...As well as increasing available power output by working their magic on the impedance issue! "

____ Firstly, I doubt that any reader knows exactly-what you're referring-to by "the impedance issue ".

__ Capacitors work their magic by storing any amount of excess/leftover power that the load didn't consume during the times that the DC.pulses were feeding the load, and then feed that stored-power to the load during the times between power-pulses,, thus just merely SEEMINGLY increasing power-output !
In actuality, capacitors can't possibly INCREASE the power-output,, but rather simply store & redistribute it, (IF there was any excess power leftover to be saved).

I doubt there are any other readers keeping up with this than the three of us and if they are, they've seen other specific references to do with this issue. If there's a need for more detailed info I have provided links to plenty of it.

I don't know how the caps do it exactly but it's certainly much more than to 'simply store & redistribute' power.
I've always assumed that it's simply a matter of them bringing the working impedance down, thus somewhat mitigating the need to do it with parallel wiring configurations.

...may've obscured test-reading/results and sort-of fooled you into suspecting that the stator's exact impedance-amount had become unimportant.

As I've mentioned many times in the past, this is why I don't entirely trust 'simulated loads' and have an actual mock setup of a typical electrical system with head/taillight and working ignition to test on.
Why I say "a bright headlight doesn't lie".
I've tested many stator config's with/without the caps in the circuit and (depending on the config used) the output numbers are sometimes substantially greater with, the practical difference being a bright or dim headlight under otherwise identical conditions.
Fool me not...

" or even the 'e' scheme for that matter... "

____ The equivalent in AA-cells has already been posted.
I'll place it here as well.
__ Please let me know if you don't agree that it's correct.

Ok, I see that now.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" I doubt there are any other readers keeping up with this than the three of us and if they are, they've seen other specific references to do with this issue. "

____ I suppose you're likely right about that, (but I still have hopes that DucWiz will step-in & tell-of whatever he KNOWS about anything touched-on).
I had mentioned-it because even I wasn't sure, as there's been at least two different aspects having to do with 'impedance' that might possibly be considered as an "issue".
__ (If Graeme is correct about it being possible to use too-much wording, then I'd suppose that HE has no-problem understanding all-of YOUR post-wording. )



" I don't know how the caps do it exactly but it's certainly much more than to 'simply store & redistribute' power. "

____ Another factor WORTHY of note, is that if the load doesn't consume ALL-of the pulsating-DC, then the cap will get a chance to raise-up the circuit-voltage...
P.DC (without any cap) will only provide an 'RMS.voltage' (which is near 71% of 'peak-voltage'), so if the load (vs. power-supply) will allow a cap to get fully-charged, then the line-voltage will get raised-up from the raw RMS.voltage to the 'filtered' 141.4% greater 'peak-voltage'. - (Example - 10volts-p.DC gets raised to 14.14-straight-DC.volts.)
But that voltage-increase can only occur if there's a surplus of power-juice left-over to fully charge the capacitor with !



" I've always assumed that it's simply a matter of them bringing the working impedance down, thus somewhat mitigating the need to do it with parallel wiring configurations. "

____ Well that may be a safe statement to say. _ As caps do indeed have an influence over inductive-impedance.
BUT their effect can-NOT change circuit 'RESISTANCE' in anyway !



" I've tested many stator config's with/without the caps in the circuit and (depending on the config used) the output numbers are sometimes substantially greater with, the practical difference being a bright or dim headlight under otherwise identical conditions. "

____ Right, that's the 'filtering-effect' of the capacitor being allowed to charge-up to 'peak-voltage' and-then use it's stored-charge to fill-in the current-gaps (left by the brief-absences of the DC.pulses).


Enlightening-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Let's talk about construction .

Bob says;"
___ Each bobbin will have only one 'winding',, however the actual number of 'coil-turns' will vary dependent upon the particular power-coil in question.

I have a length of 24 gauge inverter quality copper wire donated from a friend of mine that has an electric motor winding company. I'm winding the first small bobbin, and I find I can get ten layers of windings @ 4.5 feet per layer, so maximum of 45 ft.
The 24 gauge wire is .020 inches diameter.

The original wire is .032 (20 gauge) .
From my notes from the dissection of the coils, the original larger coils were roughly 25 feet of wire, between the two coils. Each coil had two layers of windings, for a total of four layers of windings on each spool.

So this gives roughly double the length of the original wire on the larger coil onto the rewired small coil.

For "Bob's B scheme" all bobbins, large and small, should be wound with the 45 feet of 24 gauge, right?

For "Bob's A scheme" , two bobbins should be wound with the 45 feet of 20 gauge, and four should be wound with the next determined gauge and length wire...

From the chart- http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/A ... ire-Gauge/, These figures are for comparison between the 20 gauge and 24 gauge wire, as the actual figures may be a little "overly-conservative".

20 gauge- .032 inch- resistance (1000 ft)=10.15. Max. current=1.5 amp
24 gauge- .020 inch. Resistance (1000 ft)=25.67.Max. Current=0.577 amp

Bruce.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" Let's talk about construction . "

____ Okay, that's fine,, but it seems you've jumped-ahead of that a bit already.



" I have a length of 24 gauge inverter quality copper wire
I'm winding the first small bobbin, and I find I can get ten layers of windings @ 4.5 feet per layer, so maximum of 45 ft. "

____ I have intended on asking you to do a 'practice' winding-job, so I hope the-like was on your mind as you did that one.
__ I'm fairly surprised that you were able to get such an extended length wrapped onto the small bobbin. _ I'm thinking that that's too-much,, (however if you're fairly-pleased with your winding-job, then it ought be left that way for Bill to test-out).
Can you use an ohm-meter to actually measure the (true-life) resulted resistance ? _ (The calculated-resistance [according-to info listed on that chart], is '1.16-ohms',, and that means the 'prime-pair' ought-to then result with a combined-total of near 3-ohms.)
Three-ohms for the prime-winding may seem rather high for keeping that power-coil pair from hogging too-much of the 'produced-power',, but keep in mind that about that amount of resistance is-not exceedingly-high, since the prime-winding is only expected to be matched-with just the load of merely the ign.system & battery.



" the original larger coils were roughly 25 feet of wire, between the two coils. Each coil had two layers of windings, for a total of four layers of windings on each spool. "

____ We need to define & establish word-terms like 'bobbins' ; 'spools' ; 'coils' ; windings', etc., so that no single term has more than one meaning,, as your first sentence must be doing with "coils".
__ My interpretation of those two sentences is
that the stock large power-coil/spools had 25ft total, from both of it's windings combined,
and each winding had two layers of loop-turns, for a total of four layers of loop-turns per coil-spool.
(Unless perhaps you had actually meant that BOTH of the original large coil-spools together had a combined wire-length of "25 feet" ? _ [Perhaps Graeme has the perception to perceive the correct interpretation with your minimal-wording -(like most-others write).] )



" So this gives roughly double the length of the original wire on the larger coil onto the rewired small coil. "

____ I had-not expected such an impressive rewind gain in winding-length ! _ That's somewhere well-over 200% of the original-length, and I had only hoped for up-to a 50%-gain -(150% of stock) !
__ I'd like to see a pic of your resulted power-coil. _ Have you checked to make-sure that it's not too fat to fit up-against the stator-plate in normal-position ?
But even if all seems well with it, I think you should-not rewind the larger-bobbin with any gauge thicker than #23.



" For "Bob's B scheme" all bobbins, large and small, should be wound with the 45 feet of 24 gauge, right? "

____ NO ! _ If you recall, I had stated that 'plan-B' would call-for all-6 power-coils to be rewound with a wire-gauge that's two gauge-sizes thinner.
So that had meant that only gauge-#22 would be used. _ (But that was before I had come-to realize the actual dimensions of the various wire-gauges.)



" For "Bob's A scheme" , two bobbins should be wound with the 45 feet of 20 gauge, "

____ No, (I don't think you even meant that, anyhow).
Actually, one-pair of bobbins should then be wound with gauge-#23.
Plan-A was to call-for that winding-set/pair to be rewound with a wire-gauge that's two or three sizes thinner than stock,, and since #23 turns-out to be capable of conducting half as much current as the stock 20-gauge, (which is all that a 12v.system uses [compared to an equivalent 6v.system]), THAT gauge-size is fairly suitable for the 'prime-winding'.



" and four should be wound with the next determined gauge and length wire... "

____ Right, Plan-A had called-for the other two pairs of bobbins to be rewound with a wire-gauge that's one gauge-size thinner than stock,, and we've since come-to determine that that-size would be 'gauge-#21'.



" From the chart-
These figures are for comparison between the 20 gauge and 24 gauge wire,
20 gauge- Max. current=1.5 amp
24 gauge- Max. Current=0.577 amp "

____ Those silly 'Max.current' figures are so far removed from reality, that they need-not carry any serious consideration !
But even-so,, since you were able to fit so-many layers of loop-turns as you did, I now don't think that any gauge-size thinner than #23 should any-longer be considered.
I'm now thinking that when it comes-to 'layers' of loop-turns,, that 8-layers of #23, or 6-layers of #22 ought-to fit-the-bill well enough, (but that's of-course not firm yet).



____ Bruce, you need to measure the amount of current-draw that your ign.system consumes, as well as that which your battery typically consumes. _ Cuz then with that data, we can then figure-out whether your prime-winding's resistance is acceptable, or actually unsuitably-high.
__ To test for that,, you'd need an ammeter/amp-meter connected between your ign.switch and a STRONG 12v.battery-charger, and then take your meter-readings with your-battery off-line and-also on-line, (with just ignition powered-up, [with charging-system & lights both kept off-line] ).
(Please ask, if you need more detailed direction on any of that.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

and since #23 turns-out to be capable of conducting half as much current as the stock 20-gauge, (which is all that a 12v.system uses [compared to an equivalent 6v.system]), THAT gauge-size is fairly suitable for the 'prime-winding'.

Not quite sure how to phrase this, I could be way off base here...

You've often said something to the effect that an alternator isn't designed to produce a particular voltage (at a given rpm) but rather just 'power' and the regulation and load is what then dictates the output voltage.
It seems what we're trying to do here is make the alt produce higher relative voltage by using more turns (more wire) on the coils (over simplified explanation, I'm sure), something I've inquired about in the past and just gotten a lecture on 'power' vs voltage.
So what ARE we doing here?

Why do the alt windings (for 6v vs 12v output) need a different gauge wire to handle different current if the voltage 'in the alt' is the same (is it?) regardless of the regulated output?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" Not quite sure how to phrase this, I could be way off base here... "

____ So long as you're sure that your-own wording actually states that which makes perfect-sense as far as you know, that'll have to be reasonable enough.

You've often said something to the effect that an alternator isn't designed to produce a particular voltage (at a given rpm) but rather just 'power' and the regulation and load is what then dictates the output voltage.

____ We should first have a CLEAR definition of EXACTLY-what 'VOLTAGE' actually is. _ Cuz since the term 'voltage' has become so vastly misused for so very long, that even well-trained people like MotoMike have come to be unaware & ignorant of it's specifically intended pure-meaning, and rather use it loosely in a non-definite manor ! _ And that leads to confusion as to what's really what concerning matters of 'voltage' & 'tension' & 'potential' !
Since well-trained technicians understand that actual 'voltage' itself doesn't always actually exist in some particular cases where 'tension' is however still certainly present,, the term 'potential-voltage' came to be, but has since become commonly-abbreviated as 'potential' (and has earned it's-OWN meaning).
So anyhow, 'voltage' is basically the measurement of an established-amount of 'tension', (and 'tension' is electrical-pressure) !
Unfortunately though, most-all others have come to think of electrical-pressure and 'voltage' as merely being one & the EXACT same-thing ! _ (Which they both kind-of are the same, but only BASICALLY,, [thus some confusion over the word's particular-meaning].)
__ That the term 'voltage' refers to measured amounts of established-tension, should be fairly clear to everyone,, as amounts of established-tension are ALWAYS referred-to as 'volts', (such-as: 1.5v; 6v; 9v; 12v; 110v, etc.,etc.) ! _ So-thus ya never hear anybody ask: "What's the tension of that battery?", or, "What's the potential on that battery?" ! _ RATHER instead, they always rather ask "What's the voltage of that battery?"
____ Now with that fairly elaborated-understanding having been pointed-out, onward with my specific-response to your quoted-wording...



" You've often said something to the effect that an alternator isn't designed to produce a particular voltage (at a given rpm) "

____ If it were at all possible to 'design' an alternator to produce any specific preset voltage-amount (at any RPM), then we wouldn't have any required need for regulation-circuits to control it.
__ So RATHER, (more-so than how you've put it),, I've always maintained that an alternator CAN-NOT (all on it's own) produce ANY actual 'voltage' whatsoever ! _ But rather actually, it only produces (varying amounts of) 'tension' which becomes real/TRUE 'voltage' only AFTER a connected circuit molds/fashions the tension into some resulted fixed-amount of voltage !!
__ Whereas tension is 'additive' whether combined in series OR parallel,, 'voltage' is ONLY additive when combined in 'series' !
That any resulted voltage from the power of the alternator is the same regardless of whether it's stator-windings are arranged in series or parallel, is proof that alternators (on their own) do-not produce any actual voltage ! _ Because IF they did produce voltage, then the parallel-arrangement (of the two stator-windings) would thus-then only be capable of HALF the total-voltage provided by the series-arrangement. _ And it's been proven that that's NOT the actual case !
__ So the bottom-line is: on their-own, alternators do-NOT produce actual 'VOLTAGE' ! _ (They can only be-made to merely provide some-amount of voltage.)



" but rather just 'power'
and the regulation and load is what then dictates the output voltage.

____ Right,, the alternator basically creates only raw potential-power and it's directly-associated electrical-tension, which can only become whatever amount of resulted 'voltage' that only a connected-circuit itself causes to form the supplied power/tension in-to, (as 'dictated', as you've indicated).
__ So then,, power & tension directly-from the alternator, YES,, but 'voltage', NO !



" It seems what we're trying to do here is make the alt produce higher relative voltage by using more turns (more wire) on the coils , "

____ You've just misused the term 'voltage' in the common-manor that most-everyone does,, since an alternator doesn't produce any actual/true 'voltage', in the first-place.
(Your use of that term, is much akin to saying that the heat within an oven has developed a high 'Fahrenheit' [rather than a high 'temperature'].*)
(* Wherein- 'heat' = 'power' ; 'temperature = 'tension' ; 'Fahrenheit' = 'voltage' .)
__ The inclusion of extended lengths of wire will increase TENSION and potential-power (which can possibly yield a higher max-voltage, depending-on the circuit-parameters that it's connected-to).



" something I've inquired about in the past and just gotten a lecture on 'power' vs voltage. "

____ I can't seem to recall that instance, but I'm sure that I must've been more descriptive than that, as I wish to rather extensively clear-up people's conceptions of what's actually what within the related field.
So I would've been glad to further specify, if you had bothered to mention that my presented explanation had left you still rather unclear on any related aspect.
__ If I've still failed to straighten-out any related aspect, then please ask another question (on whatever you think still needs further clarifying).



" So what ARE we doing here? "

____ Certainly it must be apparently clear that if each power-coil only had just ONE loop-turn of wire-length, then the created tension & power would be much REDUCED,, so by further lengthening the amount of wire fitted-within,
it's logically expected that a resulting power-increase will naturally become included.
As we are-NOT choosing a thinner wire-gauge because it happens to be more-suited to working with typical 12v.current-flows, but quite-RATHER because we can then FIT longer lengths of winding-wire around the stator. - (Which certainly would-not be a good-thing if matched-together with a 3v.load-system.)
__ Now since you must already be aware of at-least that much, I'm left to assume that you had quite possibly had consideration concerning something-else as well, (that probably has to do with your opening quoted-wording of mine).
So does it have to do with the fact that a 12v.load only requires half the current as an equivalent 6v.load ? _ Or, exactly what are you actually trying to get-at ?



" Why do the alt windings (for 6v vs 12v output) need a different gauge wire to handle different current if the voltage 'in the alt' is the same (is it?) regardless of the regulated output? "

____ I'm not-sure where this question is actually meaning-to come-from.
An alternator doesn't really 'NEED' to have directly-varied wire-gauges in particular-accordance to the specific ratio of voltage-to-current dictated by the particular set-voltage of the associated load-system,, as ALL load-systems would just-as-soon that the alt.power-windings be as thick of a gauge as possible. _ It's just that the 12v.circuit-loads aren't as dependent on as thick of a wire-gauge (as the equivalent 6v.circuit-loads are).
__ By-now you should understand that there is NO 'voltage' involved within the alternator-itself alone.
Now if you had actually meant 'tension' (rather than 'voltage'),, then logically understand that equal lengths of gauge-#10 & gauge-#40 would both produce the same-amount of tension, but a 2v.system would sensibly require far better current-handling capability than a load-equivalent 24v.system would ! _ So likewise, a 12v.system can get-by with #23-gauge better than a 6v.system could,, as otherwise, a hefty 6v.load would make the power-winding become THE 'bottle-neck' to the entire circuit. - (And the bottle-neck always drops the greatest amount of power !)
__ I'm thinking I've possibly still missed the-mark on exactly what you had meant to get-at,, so if-so, then please ask a refined question pertaining-to your particular inquiry.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[Harvey]

Bob__ The inclusion of extended lengths of wire will increase TENSION and potential-power (which can possibly yield a higher max-voltage, depending-on the circuit-parameters that it's connected-to).

Not wanting to confuse the issue, but this statement not quite right Bob. The alternator produces power due to the strength of the magnetic field, from the magnets, and the speed of rotation. We take this power off by using a coil of wire to turn the power into an electrical form.
This electrical energy can be taken as a high potential difference ‘Voltage’ or a high electron flow ‘Current’, depending on the amount of turns, to produce the high potential ‘Voltage’, and the thickness of the conductor to allow the high electron flow ‘Current’.

So what you are doing by increasing the amount of wire turns is to take more of the generated power, as a potential difference ‘Voltage’, and less as electron flow ‘Amps’. The end result will be that the load will have a higher voltage across it, but flow less amperage through it, but the alternator will still produce the same amount of power, it will not increase the power output.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

Not wanting to confuse the issue, but this statement not quite right Bob. The alternator produces power due to the strength of the magnetic field, from the magnets, and the speed of rotation. We take this power off by using a coil of wire to turn the power into an electrical form.
This electrical energy can be taken as a high potential difference ‘Voltage’ or a high electron flow ‘Current’, depending on the amount of turns, to produce the high potential ‘Voltage’, and the thickness of the conductor to allow the high electron flow ‘Current’.

So what you are doing by increasing the amount of wire turns is to take more of the generated power, as a potential difference ‘Voltage’, and less as electron flow ‘Amps’. The end result will be that the load will have a higher voltage across it, but flow less amperage through it, but the alternator will still produce the same amount of power, it will not increase the power output.

____ Well Harvey, I had had some hopes that you might join-in sometime and could possibly add 2-cents worth that would help back-me-up on something or another,, with a different-way of wording whatever, (so that maybe those such as Graeme would more easily understand).
However it rather seems that you've instead come with tidings similar to that which MotoMike was always good for bringing to the table (to somewhat thwart me).
____ But anyhow, what it seems that you're claiming is that if all the loop-turns of the original 20-gauge windings were to be replaced with a single loop-turn of gauge-00 (for each power-coil winding), then we would STILL obtain the same amount of alt.power production (rather in the form of lowered voltage & raised current).
Is that correct ?
__ What you've pointed-out of-course makes fair/logical sense for the workings of transformer-like circuits where the inputted-power is [b]preset to a LIMITED amount of voltage[/b] -(established-tension). _ However the circumstances of alternators are substantially quite different, (which I had HAD hopes that YOU had already fully-realized),, as the tension which alternators develop is raw & unformed, in that it hasn't yet been shaped into any specific 'voltage' -(particular amount of established-tension) !
__ The longer winding will indeed create more tension (as you've agreed), but since 'current' isn't actually forced to abide by any preset limit (and-so therefore could possibly remain unreduced),, 'power' can thusly be increased !
__ You are certainly correct that magnetic-field 'strength' and 'speed' are two main factors in the production of such induced power, but there's also (at-least) another important factor,, and that is the 'AMOUNT' of flux-line 'cutting' which actually occurs !
It should be realized that every time any flux-line is 'cut' by a wire passing through it, a small amount of 'tension' is then created !
So, just as stronger magnets provide a greater density of flux-lines to become cut,, a longer winding is able to FIND more places for (whatever existing) flux-lines to become cut at ! _ And in that-way, more power can thusly be produced !
Otherwise, why would any alternator-models ever be made to contain longer lengths of wire to produce more power,, when rather according-to what you've suggested, they could instead merely use a much shorter length of a very FAT winding (to produce the same amount of total 'power').
(If that was the actual case, then I'm sure the manufacturers would've been interested in at-least saving on the insulation-coating that thinner/longer-windings uses more of.)
So does your-reasoning possibly mean that a winding with thicker-wire (with it's length unchanged), will produce more power ?
__ I believe that you've made the same mistake as MotoMike always insisted on doing, and that's to think of the workings of alternators as being pretty-much the same as the workings of transformers (or inductive circuit-isolators), which they're actually NOT very much the same.
__ I suggest that you read and make yourself completely understand most-all of that which I've stated within the 6th-post on this page, (which is my reply-post to Bill's rather productive brought-up question/concerns),, as I've now pretty-much finished-up that post.


Enlightening-Cheers,
D.Bob

[graeme]

[ducwiz]

Greame,

your picture shows exactly what I would explain to an electrical layman! But - alternators can not only be described by voltage, current and resistance. There is a fourth quality contributing to the game - inductivity, or impedance, respectively. Inductivity is not easily explained, but it's impact is present in our alternators, as well as in our ignition systems. Those would not produce any spark without inductivity in form of a coil in the circuit.

A famous and comprehensive geman website about bicycle lighting systems explains, how an alternator can be described and understood by formulae. This is useful and valid in our case, because alternators with permanent magnets are nothing but sort of enlarged bicycle dynamos.
For the mathematically curious among us I've put the german page into google translator:
http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node434.html
Maybe this is useful for some of us. I recommend to read the main and the following 2-3 subpages.

cheers Hans