Troubleshooting Alternator Wiring

[graeme]

I have to agree with Hans about the "special" language used.

I grew up and went to school in Australia and learnt English, but I have to say, that I have to read some of your posts a few times to fully understand what you are saying Bob.
To my brain there are a lot of words that don't need to be included to make your point.

I understand that you take a lot of care to explain your point using as many descriptive words as possible, but I also find some of your sentences hard to understand when I first read them.

You would make a good politician or solicitor.

Also the unfinished posts take a lot of time to go back and see what you have added. (I do read them)

This is not a negative critisism, but maybe some post could be shorter and more to the point and therefore easier to read for me and possibly many people who have a first language other than english?

Graeme

[ecurbruce]

Bob, here are some questions;

Would we Abandon the dual coils per bobbin?
Will all bobbins have identical number of windings?
If there's three pairs of coils, will each pair carry one third of the load, or will each pair carry the full load one third of the time? (Thinking of the wire's capacity to carry an amped up load per size of wire...)

Would the paired coils be side by side, or would they be staggered?

Let's say stator lugs positions are labeled 1,2,3,4,5,&6,, in a circle,,,
Then in plan A- what position would the two coils with smaller gauge wire occupy?
In plan B, which stator numbers would you pair, 1&2, 3&4, 5&6? OR 1&4,2&5,3&6?

I gather the bobbins would alternate wound clockwise, counter-clockwise?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= ecurbruce ...
" Would we Abandon the dual coils per bobbin? "

____ YES, of-course,, that's what was intended to be meant by my compound-word: "continuously-wound" !
I had expected that elimination of the stock dual windings per power-coil arrangement, would've been a given-expectation, considering that everyone has always wished to increase LOW-RPM alt.power-output.



" Will all bobbins have identical number of windings? "

____ Each bobbin will have only one 'winding',, however the actual number of 'coil-turns' will vary dependent upon the particular power-coil in question.



" If there's three pairs of coils, will each pair carry one third of the load, or will each pair carry the full load one third of the time? "

____ That question (as it's particularly put), is really only applicable to 'plan-B'...
Since all three pairs would be pretty-much identically 'matched' and directly connected-up in parallel,, there'd thus-then be no opportunity for any single pair to carry the load alone, at any time !
The later-part of your question is-not applicable since all three pairs are always 'in-phase' ! _ And besides, if only one pair (at a time) carried the load, then the alternators power-rating could only be just one-third of the EXPECTED-total.
__ Concerning 'plan-A' however, IT's more complex...
It's three pairs are sensibly broken-down into two types... the 'prime-pair' would be intended for the general battery-system and ALWAYS directly-connected to the R-R.unit,, while the two 'aux.pairs' are expected to become also brought on-line ONLY when the headlight has become brought on-line ! _ At which point all-three pairs will then be powering the entire combined load-system.



" (Thinking of the wire's capacity to carry an amped up load per size of wire...) "

____ That is of-course a factor to be concerned with,, but since the rather-thin windings will be rather working in 'parallel', that then cancels the undesired-effect of thinner-wire/windings, and so-thus does-not lead to the alt.winding-circuit itself becoming the 'bottle-neck' to current-flow when the system-load demands high-current,,
(thus allowing us to get-away with the thinner-gauged wire).
It's always quite-preferable for the intended 'load' to be THE bottle-neck to current-flow, for most efficient system-efficiency !)
__ In the case of jbcollier's rewound 6-pole alt.stator,, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=593#p3769 , HIS-project called-for THICKER-gauged wire-windings presumably because his alt.stator carries only-just a SINGLE-winding continuously-wound throughout ALL-six power-coils, in 'SERIES'. _ And so therefore if his wire-gauge size had-not been made thicker in such case (to compensate), then the alt.winding's total-resistance (in series) would've been too-great and thus-then more easily become the 'bottle-neck' to maximized current-flow, and thusly more inefficient !



" Would the paired coils be side by side, or would they be staggered? "
" In plan B, which stator numbers would you pair, 1&2, 3&4, 5&6? OR 1&4,2&5,3&6? "

____ Of-course side-by-side would be most convenient 'physically', (and that's what my-own special 6-pole stator-arrangement employs, for simplicity).
However, rather than that physically-convenient side-by-side arrangement, I'd suppose that it MAY be fairly magnetically-superior for the paired-up power-coil pairs to rather be 180-degrees opposed, (instead of rather-oddly at just 60-degrees, as when they're side-by-side).
But so far as I know, the industry doesn't specifically bother to take advantage of any possibly possible efficiency-improvement that such a symmetrical-arrangement MAY-possibly additionally provide.
__ So YOU-yourself being the intended constructor, could make that position-connection decision on your-own for yourself.



" Let's say stator lugs positions are labeled 1,2,3,4,5,&6,, in a circle,,,
Then in plan A- what position would the two coils with smaller gauge wire occupy? "

____ Of-course it wouldn't really matter, but a fairly logical-manor would be to place the odd-pair in the formally unoccupied position (at 11 & 1 o'clock) and thus-then become coil-numbers 6 & 1.



" I gather the bobbins would alternate wound clockwise, counter-clockwise? "

____ Well that's what I might've assumed as well,, but back-when you had unwrapped the coil-loops, I thought you had indicated that they were all wound in the same direction ?
Apparently that winding directional-option would depend-on how their pole-ends are to be matched-up together.
In any case, your guide ought-to be to copy the winding-directions as done by Ducati.


Enlightening-Cheers,
-Bob

[wcorey]

" I gather the bobbins would alternate wound clockwise, counter-clockwise? "

I think the coils can be wound in any direction and it wouldn't matter, so long as they're
connected in the proper relation to each other to determine the desired polarity/phase/direction.

So if all the coils were wound in the same direction, every other one would have the
connections 'crossed' to put it out of phase with the adjacent coils.

IIRC on the 4 coil stator the two small coils were the same but the two large ones were different,
either in winding direction and/or the order the wires entered/exited the bobbin.

If you look at my old stator diagrams you'll see this reflected in the order of the terminals, always one odd one.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" I think the coils can be wound in any direction and it wouldn't matter, so long as they're
connected in the proper relation to each other to determine the desired polarity/phase/direction. "

____ I believe that's correct. _ The winding-direction of the coiled loop-turns should be chosen so as to make the connections between power-coils, most convenient.



" So if all the coils were wound in the same direction, every other one would have the
connections 'crossed' to put it out of phase with the adjacent coils. "

____ I think that would make correct-sense for an arrangement where there'd be more than two power-coils connected in series. _ But we don't plan to do that.



" on the 4 coil stator the two small coils were the same but the two large ones were different, "

____ I'm left to make my best guess, but to be sure,, do you specifically mean that the "two large ones were different" from each-other, or, 'different' than the "two small coils" ?



" If you look at my old stator diagrams you'll see this reflected in the order of the terminals, always one odd one. "

____ I wonder what's-up on the reason for that ?
__ That kind of illogical-inconsistency will hopefully be avoided for the project-stator.


____ Bill, you haven't yet voiced your opinion about whether you'd be interested in testing the project-stator.
Would it be a displeasure for you ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Yea, what say ye, Bill?

[wcorey]

Yea, what say ye, Bill?

I'm in, I would have thought that goes without saying...

The testing that is, too many other things going on to actually do the winding/constructing.

..._ But we don't plan to do that.

Not suggesting you do it that way, was just an example to clarify the point.

...
do you specifically mean that the "two large ones were different" from each-other, or, 'different' than the "two small coils" ?

From each other. It was always a pain too keep straight when I was re-arranging things on the stator or doing diagrams.
I guess the small ones must have a different winding direction (from the large ones) but that isn't to do with my intended point.

____ I wonder what's-up on the reason for that ?

Because it's a Ducati, lol.
Likely one of those (shrug) "why ask why" things...

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= wcorey ...
" Not suggesting you do it that way, was just an example to clarify the point. "

____ Right of-course,, I had figured that YOU ought to have realized well-enough,
I just wanted to help keep readers from possibly getting off-tracked.



" It was always a pain too keep straight when I was re-arranging things on the stator or doing diagrams. "

____ Thankfully, the project-stator shouldn't involve any such related pains.



" I guess the small ones must have a different winding direction (from the large ones) "

____ Just-as I believe the project-stator's simplified power-coils will.



" but that isn't to do with my intended point. "

____ I believe your intended-point was concerning the haphazard-manor at which the lead-ends would pop-out from the bobbin in an inconsistent pattern (polarity-wise, [non meaning physically-wise]). - (Correct me if I'm wrong).



____ Glad to learn (for sure) that you have some desire to do the test-work !



Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Bruce's questions were good for getting details clarified, so I expected that my reply-post would've spawned still more questions.
So hopefully he (or anyone-else) has yet to get-around to asking whatever he thinks of.
__ I'm wondering which plan (A or B) he's finding most attractive so far, and why !?
Also, we'll soon need to know the physical-details of the winding-wire that he can obtain, so I can then do some math-work concerning them (for comparisons).
Of-course superconducting-wire would be absolute-best, but we'd be lucky just to get silver-wire (as opposed to copper-wire) !

____ Earlier I wanted to use some images of AA-cells to rather more-simply indicate what's-what with various power-coil connection-arrangements, and the now included pic.display finally shows the equivalent arrangements which I had earlier wanted to include. _ So since THIS-post doesn't really require the included pic.display,, then after this page becomes filled, I'll then move it to a more appropriate post.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[ecurbruce]

Bob says;"__ I'm wondering which plan (A or B) he's finding most attractive so far, and why !?
Also, we'll soon need to know the physical-details of the winding-wire that he can obtain, so I can then do some math-work concerning them (for comparisons).
Of-course superconducting-wire would be absolute-best, but we'd be lucky just to get silver-wire (as opposed to copper-wire) !

I'm kind-of leaning towards "Plan A", more on that later...

Gauges of solid magnet wire available at the moment;
No 20 gauge at the moment
18,22,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,36,37,38,40is the smallest available right now.
I'm finding solid laquered copper wire only, and I guess for the sake of keeping our test results fair, we should stay with copper anyway, what do you think?

I meant to measure the original winding wire yesterday(at work), didn't get around to it, and now it'll be monday.
If Anyone reading here knows the size of the original wire, feel free to chime in!
Bruce.