" ok this means a yellow wire from 62 monza duke 40w alt is connected to both a/c terminals on #1 bridge rec, and the other yellow wire from the alt is connected to both a/c terminals on bridge #2! (can they be jumped from the a/c terminals on each bridge?) "
____ Okay, you have that quite correct ! _ (BUT only concerning my FIRST post about the use of TWO rect.blocks!)
And yes, you could complete both of those two separate double-connections (to each pair of AC-terminals, of each rect.block), by making a jumper-wire-connection between those two AC-input terminals, on each rect.block, (separately of course!). _ However, if by: "(can they be jumped from the a/c terminals on each bridge?)", you had actually meant: 'can any of the AC-terminals be jumped together between the two separate rect.blocks?', THEN the answer would be: 'NO!' (of course, as doing that would then short-out the whole alternator!).
__ These connections will appear to be totally wrong when first glanced-at by most any electrical-tech -(who's used to seeing such rect.blocks used as a proper 'bridge'), but we are only just making use of all the extra diodes, (when wired as I've suggested), so as to allow cooler running for each diode.
" Am I ok so far? "
____ Well yes, but not-exactly.....
Concerning the "Well yes" of my reply, your two conclusions are quite okay,, but...
But I guess I need to point-out that the reason it seems that you're not-exactly "ok so far", is because you have taken parts of TWO different posts which were about two DIFFERENT systems,, so if left unchecked, that mix-up would likely lead to even more confusion later.
As it's looking as if you reached your second/bottom conclusion based on (your seemingly misinterpretation of) the wording within my newer post, (which is actually intended to be only about a 2nd similar & simpler system than that which we had first started-out with in this thread!). _ As that newer-post now concerns only a SINGLE rect.block with just it's ONE positive-output (that's connected to both a red-wire & a gray-wire) _ Whilst you're also still in regards to the 1st system -(which involves a PAIR of rect.blocks), as well. _ (I can only assume that your mix-up was due to skim-reading though this thread!?)
Anyhow, let me elaborate.....
__ This thread was started so that I could cover a few of the DIFFERENT & varying alternate systems intended for use with the twin-wirelead type of Ducati-alternators.
I started-out this thread with main reference to a relatively complex system, and next I have begun to explain ANOTHER simpler-version (of that first system), which would likely lead to confusion for anyone who doesn't happen to realize that this thread is now also involved with a second & slightly different version, (which by the way, has been LOGICALLY placed within it's very-own separate posting, to help prevent any such mix-ups) !
So from now-on, please be sure to make a point of WHICH post/system that you're actually in regards to within this thread ! _ (This is one reason for why I think that this w.site would benefit with a Tree-structure type filing-system for all it's non-current postings.)
DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob
Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
Moderator: ajleone
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DewCatTea-Bob
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Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
Last edited by DewCatTea-Bob on Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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bettyann
- Posts: 57
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Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
___ok this means a red wire to bridge #1positive post to recharge the battery!
next a gray wire from bridge #2 positive to say to headlight switch to brighten lights
Am I ok so far? Capt Paul Thank You BoB
bettyann
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:21 pm
* Private message
Now here in Florida the lights have to be on 24/7. So could I connect both red and they grey, ( both pos out puts) lto the batt to power the lights, that have to be on all the time in Florida, 40 w 63 4 speed monza 2 yellow wire,let me know
The same goes for your 6v28w alt with the 4 wire conversion, use both positive outputs to go to the battery also to have real bright lights.Capt Paul
next a gray wire from bridge #2 positive to say to headlight switch to brighten lights
Am I ok so far? Capt Paul Thank You BoB
bettyann
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:21 pm
* Private message
Now here in Florida the lights have to be on 24/7. So could I connect both red and they grey, ( both pos out puts) lto the batt to power the lights, that have to be on all the time in Florida, 40 w 63 4 speed monza 2 yellow wire,let me know
The same goes for your 6v28w alt with the 4 wire conversion, use both positive outputs to go to the battery also to have real bright lights.Capt Paul
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DewCatTea-Bob
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Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
" So could I connect both red and they grey, ( both pos out puts) lto the batt to power the lights, that have to be on all the time in Florida, "
____ Well C.Paul, I'm sure that you know enough about system-wiring on your own, that you are fairly sure of what the answer to your question is,, and that you're only asking me that just in case there may be some down-side to simply doing that. _ So instead of merely answering 'Yes', I'll add all the following.....
__ I myself would not do such simple wiring on a DUKE of my own, even if the law stated that the lights must be on when-ever the engine is running ! _ However I do understand that most people prefer to keep system-wiring as simple as possible. _ So in this post, I'll try to cover a bit about that.
__ Now you didn't make it really clear if you prefer to go with the 1st (more complex) system (of which it's two separate positive-outputs are connected thru red/orange wires to battery & load-system),
or,
the 2nd (simplified system) which has it's single positive-output connected by a red-wire for the battery, plus by a gray-wire to the (positive) load-system.
__ Anyhow, if you need to run the lights at all times, then there's really no need to employ the 1st-system (with two separate rect.blocks, [so as to allow the power-outputs of the two separate alt.power-coils to remain separated). _ As the whole-idea for this twin-rect.block system, is to prevent over-charging of the battery WHEN THE LIGHTS ARE OFF !
Therefore, if you prefer to keep your system simpler, and the lights are to be left ON while whenever riding,, then it's quite clear that you should choose the simpler, single rect.block system, (without it's added toggle-switch).
____ Now that the clarifying points have (now redundantly) been made here (& elsewhere in this thread), I'll next apply your question to both systems (of this thread [thus far posted]).....
__ With the 1st-system -(of this thread), the answer is: 'YES, of course!' ... As both positive-outputs could be connected directly together at what-ever (sensible) physical point you choose! - (Since they would end-up the same, electrically,, anyhow!)
But in this case, I feel the need to point-out that doing such as that, would be sorta like pouring 2 separate half-cups of water, and then pouring them both into 1 cup before drinking any of the water ! - (There's really no point in that!)
__ With the 2nd-system, the answer is: 'YES, certainly you could!' ... But it would not make much sense to have both wires making the exact same physical & electrical connection (from the rectifier to the battery).
In this case, I'd have a 18Ga red-wire from the rectifier to the battery, and a 16Ga grey-wire from the rectifier to feed the (positive) load-system. _ (Both wires connected to the POSitive-output of the rect.block.)
__ (Next time, please remember to clarify which system you are choosing to go with.)
____ I still intend to add 2 or 3 more proposed systems to this thread !
__ You still never answered me as to whether or not you have the stator removed from THIS particular DUKE-project of yours ! _ So I thus far have had to assume that your DUKE is all assembled and thus you don't wish to mess with modifying it's stator.
Since you prefer to run with lights ON at all times, you might choose to go with a simple 12-volt system !?
" The same goes for your 6v28w alt with the 4 wire conversion, use both positive outputs to go to the battery also to have real bright lights. "
____ I'm not going to answer this question here (in THIS thread!)... As it occurs to me that other skim-readers may read it and then also become confused, (by mentally combining varying details of different postings within this same thread).
Anyhow, I'm sure you realize that it's okay to combine positive outputs together anyway.
__ I'll soon reply to this last question within the corresponding thread. _ (But to help keep ya from becoming further confused, I'll wait until after I know you have read this post,, cuz I realize that if I post both at once, you'll then most likely read both at once, and then I may have an even harder time trying to get your thoughts untangled.)
____Ya might care to try REreading -(not skimming!) your choice of EITHER just the '1st', OR, just the '2nd', of the two DIFFERENT systems posted-separately within this same thread, (so as to get one OR the other correctly straightened-out & understood, so that it's more clear in your mind). _ THEN, ask any more questions which ya may then have. _ (I'm looking forward to them!)
Tillater then,
DCT-Bob
____ Well C.Paul, I'm sure that you know enough about system-wiring on your own, that you are fairly sure of what the answer to your question is,, and that you're only asking me that just in case there may be some down-side to simply doing that. _ So instead of merely answering 'Yes', I'll add all the following.....
__ I myself would not do such simple wiring on a DUKE of my own, even if the law stated that the lights must be on when-ever the engine is running ! _ However I do understand that most people prefer to keep system-wiring as simple as possible. _ So in this post, I'll try to cover a bit about that.
__ Now you didn't make it really clear if you prefer to go with the 1st (more complex) system (of which it's two separate positive-outputs are connected thru red/orange wires to battery & load-system),
or,
the 2nd (simplified system) which has it's single positive-output connected by a red-wire for the battery, plus by a gray-wire to the (positive) load-system.
__ Anyhow, if you need to run the lights at all times, then there's really no need to employ the 1st-system (with two separate rect.blocks, [so as to allow the power-outputs of the two separate alt.power-coils to remain separated). _ As the whole-idea for this twin-rect.block system, is to prevent over-charging of the battery WHEN THE LIGHTS ARE OFF !
Therefore, if you prefer to keep your system simpler, and the lights are to be left ON while whenever riding,, then it's quite clear that you should choose the simpler, single rect.block system, (without it's added toggle-switch).
____ Now that the clarifying points have (now redundantly) been made here (& elsewhere in this thread), I'll next apply your question to both systems (of this thread [thus far posted]).....
__ With the 1st-system -(of this thread), the answer is: 'YES, of course!' ... As both positive-outputs could be connected directly together at what-ever (sensible) physical point you choose! - (Since they would end-up the same, electrically,, anyhow!)
But in this case, I feel the need to point-out that doing such as that, would be sorta like pouring 2 separate half-cups of water, and then pouring them both into 1 cup before drinking any of the water ! - (There's really no point in that!)
__ With the 2nd-system, the answer is: 'YES, certainly you could!' ... But it would not make much sense to have both wires making the exact same physical & electrical connection (from the rectifier to the battery).
In this case, I'd have a 18Ga red-wire from the rectifier to the battery, and a 16Ga grey-wire from the rectifier to feed the (positive) load-system. _ (Both wires connected to the POSitive-output of the rect.block.)
__ (Next time, please remember to clarify which system you are choosing to go with.)
____ I still intend to add 2 or 3 more proposed systems to this thread !
__ You still never answered me as to whether or not you have the stator removed from THIS particular DUKE-project of yours ! _ So I thus far have had to assume that your DUKE is all assembled and thus you don't wish to mess with modifying it's stator.
Since you prefer to run with lights ON at all times, you might choose to go with a simple 12-volt system !?
" The same goes for your 6v28w alt with the 4 wire conversion, use both positive outputs to go to the battery also to have real bright lights. "
____ I'm not going to answer this question here (in THIS thread!)... As it occurs to me that other skim-readers may read it and then also become confused, (by mentally combining varying details of different postings within this same thread).
Anyhow, I'm sure you realize that it's okay to combine positive outputs together anyway.
__ I'll soon reply to this last question within the corresponding thread. _ (But to help keep ya from becoming further confused, I'll wait until after I know you have read this post,, cuz I realize that if I post both at once, you'll then most likely read both at once, and then I may have an even harder time trying to get your thoughts untangled.)
____Ya might care to try REreading -(not skimming!) your choice of EITHER just the '1st', OR, just the '2nd', of the two DIFFERENT systems posted-separately within this same thread, (so as to get one OR the other correctly straightened-out & understood, so that it's more clear in your mind). _ THEN, ask any more questions which ya may then have. _ (I'm looking forward to them!)
Tillater then,
DCT-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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bettyann
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:21 am
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
dew cat tee bob
I took an old 250crank shaft cut off the rod and balanced it some what.
I have an old set of cracked cases to put it in, I'll use a couple of sealed crank bearings.
Mount the timing cover with and condenser&points.Use a 2 speed washing motor (1725/3450rpm)
put on the motor a 1,2,3 inch pulley, with a 1inch on the flywheel rotor.
I saw this at Syd's cycles,It was built to test ducati alternators out put at different rpm,s
I'll set it up first with a 40w monza,
Then a 60w monza
Then a 28w 4wire conversion.
As soon as I get it welded and set up, one at a time I'll test each modification you have taught
us. This system can test spark,amps volts at different rpms,
Maduck who invented this machine for syd's, told how to build it.
He had a lot of interesting data, and had alts. putting out 3/8"spark plug gaps
So till I make something to test with,I won't be bothering you with silly questions'.
Capt Paul
I took an old 250crank shaft cut off the rod and balanced it some what.
I have an old set of cracked cases to put it in, I'll use a couple of sealed crank bearings.
Mount the timing cover with and condenser&points.Use a 2 speed washing motor (1725/3450rpm)
put on the motor a 1,2,3 inch pulley, with a 1inch on the flywheel rotor.
I saw this at Syd's cycles,It was built to test ducati alternators out put at different rpm,s
I'll set it up first with a 40w monza,
Then a 60w monza
Then a 28w 4wire conversion.
As soon as I get it welded and set up, one at a time I'll test each modification you have taught
us. This system can test spark,amps volts at different rpms,
Maduck who invented this machine for syd's, told how to build it.
He had a lot of interesting data, and had alts. putting out 3/8"spark plug gaps
So till I make something to test with,I won't be bothering you with silly questions'.
Capt Paul
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
" Use a 2 speed washing motor (1725/3450rpm)
put on the motor a 1,2,3 inch pulley, with a 1inch on the flywheel rotor. "
____ WOW Capt Paul, that sounds really great !!
Then you could take readings at: 1725; 3450; 5175; 6900; & 10350 RPM-points, to then get a fairly-good idea of overall power-output of which-ever alt.stators you put to your test !
Hopefully you'll also have weak vs. strong rotors (magnets) to compare as well.
" I won't be bothering you with silly questions'. "
____ Never a concern, C.Paul ! ... As one man's silly-question is another man's quite pertinent-question ! _ (So that's why I usually try to over-answer any one man's question.)
Excited-Cheers!
-Bob
put on the motor a 1,2,3 inch pulley, with a 1inch on the flywheel rotor. "
____ WOW Capt Paul, that sounds really great !!
Then you could take readings at: 1725; 3450; 5175; 6900; & 10350 RPM-points, to then get a fairly-good idea of overall power-output of which-ever alt.stators you put to your test !
Hopefully you'll also have weak vs. strong rotors (magnets) to compare as well.
" I won't be bothering you with silly questions'. "
____ Never a concern, C.Paul ! ... As one man's silly-question is another man's quite pertinent-question ! _ (So that's why I usually try to over-answer any one man's question.)
Excited-Cheers!
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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DucBevellvr
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:02 pm
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
Greetings to all here!
I'm so very glad to finally be one of all you other established members of this really great Duc website, which has been managing to stay so loyal to the Bevel Duc Singles (without getting off track with much of any sideways-crap, like other Duc sites often do!)!
I ment to get at least this one post of mine here, posted the same day when I registered as a new member here, but I've had much trouble getting logged in ever since! I guess because I somehow didn't get my original password properly set, that first time.
Ever since I learned of this site, I've been trying to keep track of it's most interesting topics during work days whenever I get a break to use a company computer. So until recently, I haven't gotten around to registering here so I could try posting some of the accumulating questions I've been wondering about.
I have a nice Monza which I gather is older than 1966, because it doesn't have the squarish style type of body work.
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? I've been told elsewhere that the stock "magneto/generator" won't keep such a powerful light fully bright unless I'm only going to use it for roadracing.
My Monza doesn't have any other reason to tear into it's motor, so I really don't want to take it apart just to modify it's stator or something.
So can one of the systems in this thread (or any other) make it worth my trouble to convert to 12 volts just so I could make use the desirable 55/60 watt headlight?
I was also told elsewhere, that a "duke nut" called "ducati bob" on this motoscrubs site is my best bet for answering my questions about this kind of stuff. So being already familiar with most topics here, I think I've chosen the best thread for this post of mine.
Hopefully "DCT-Bob" will have time to find and respond to my post here, (after he does the other new guy of course).(?)
Since this is my first post, I'll add here that I also have a junkbike (not really good enough to still call it a real "DUKE") that seems to be some sort of a scrambler, 250cc.
It's motor seems frozen solid, and I was told that it's suposed to be a 5speed but that it only had a couple gears that work. So I don't know if I'll ever do anything with it except keep it for a partsbike.
The old man I got it from has a running 450 I'm keeping my eye on, so I might get that too some day.
Closing for now, I'll just mention that my very first Ducati was a 350 (scrambler I think), which I much regret selling about 15 years ago for only $400, (on trade towards my 860GT).
Bevel Cheers,
Jeff
I'm so very glad to finally be one of all you other established members of this really great Duc website, which has been managing to stay so loyal to the Bevel Duc Singles (without getting off track with much of any sideways-crap, like other Duc sites often do!)!
I ment to get at least this one post of mine here, posted the same day when I registered as a new member here, but I've had much trouble getting logged in ever since! I guess because I somehow didn't get my original password properly set, that first time.
Ever since I learned of this site, I've been trying to keep track of it's most interesting topics during work days whenever I get a break to use a company computer. So until recently, I haven't gotten around to registering here so I could try posting some of the accumulating questions I've been wondering about.
I have a nice Monza which I gather is older than 1966, because it doesn't have the squarish style type of body work.
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? I've been told elsewhere that the stock "magneto/generator" won't keep such a powerful light fully bright unless I'm only going to use it for roadracing.
My Monza doesn't have any other reason to tear into it's motor, so I really don't want to take it apart just to modify it's stator or something.
So can one of the systems in this thread (or any other) make it worth my trouble to convert to 12 volts just so I could make use the desirable 55/60 watt headlight?
I was also told elsewhere, that a "duke nut" called "ducati bob" on this motoscrubs site is my best bet for answering my questions about this kind of stuff. So being already familiar with most topics here, I think I've chosen the best thread for this post of mine.
Hopefully "DCT-Bob" will have time to find and respond to my post here, (after he does the other new guy of course).(?)
Since this is my first post, I'll add here that I also have a junkbike (not really good enough to still call it a real "DUKE") that seems to be some sort of a scrambler, 250cc.
It's motor seems frozen solid, and I was told that it's suposed to be a 5speed but that it only had a couple gears that work. So I don't know if I'll ever do anything with it except keep it for a partsbike.
The old man I got it from has a running 450 I'm keeping my eye on, so I might get that too some day.
Closing for now, I'll just mention that my very first Ducati was a 350 (scrambler I think), which I much regret selling about 15 years ago for only $400, (on trade towards my 860GT).
Bevel Cheers,
Jeff
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
" I have a nice Monza which I gather is older than 1966, because it doesn't have the squarish style type of body work.
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? "
____ Does it have a 4-speed or a 5-speed trans/box?
" I've been told elsewhere that the stock "magneto/generator" won't keep such a powerful light fully bright unless I'm only going to use it for roadracing. "
____ Well first-off, I gather that you've already realized that the stock ALTERNATOR is not actually a real 'magneto' or a real 'generator' . - (I'll concede that it's not out-rightly completely wrong to use either of those terms, however.)
__ It's true that the STOCK alternator won't keep a 12-volt battery charged-up while fully powering such a powerful light during less than constant high-RPM running. _ As the 'break-even' RPM-point is then too high for normal street & road riding use !
However if you have the later '60-watt' 6-pole alt.model, then the break-even point can be made reasonable for the type of riding which you choose to do. ...
Besides modifying the charging-system, it would also help to lower the break-even RPM by replacing the std.tail-light bulb with a newer LED-type of tail-light bulb.
" My Monza doesn't have any other reason to tear into it's motor, so I really don't want to take it apart just to modify it's stator or something.
So can one of the systems in this thread (or any other) make it worth my trouble to convert to 12 volts just so I could make use the desirable 55/60 watt headlight? "
____ While the two systems that I've posted (so far) in this thread could handle a normal/low-demand 12-volt battery system, it would be best to instead run the alternator's two power-windings in 'series' (rather than parallel), for use with such a high-power light as you wish to use.
__ I actually have already been meaning to next add another post to this thread about how a lower break-even RPM-point for a 12-volt system can be achieved without modifying the stock stator ! _ I'll try to get to that sooner, now that somebody has asked for such a solution.
" So being already familiar with most topics here, I think I've chosen the best thread for this post of mine. "
____ THANKS for being so considerate, for bothering to use an existing thread for your related inquiry !
" I'll add here that I also have a junkbike (not really good enough to still call it a real "DUKE") "
____ If your "junkbike" has a fairly complete motor plus (at least) a bare-frame, then I proclaim that it's still good enough to be referred to as a real 'DUKE' !!
" It's motor seems frozen solid, and I was told that it's suposed to be a 5speed but that it only had a couple gears that work. "
____ That's a common occurrence which is caused by the shifter-box being installed while out-of-sync with it's trans.gear selector-drum.
But to prove this to be the actual situation, we first ought to get your piston unfrozen, (as I assume you got that DUKE from the old-owner due to it being left uncared for, for many years?). _ So soon as you can, squirt some thin oil in through it's cyl.head plug-hole.
__ I hope you'll see fit to move this topic to it's own thread. _ If you wish help with this, I'll be glad to get you started thru it !
DUCATIly,
DCT-Bob
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? "
____ Does it have a 4-speed or a 5-speed trans/box?
" I've been told elsewhere that the stock "magneto/generator" won't keep such a powerful light fully bright unless I'm only going to use it for roadracing. "
____ Well first-off, I gather that you've already realized that the stock ALTERNATOR is not actually a real 'magneto' or a real 'generator' . - (I'll concede that it's not out-rightly completely wrong to use either of those terms, however.)
__ It's true that the STOCK alternator won't keep a 12-volt battery charged-up while fully powering such a powerful light during less than constant high-RPM running. _ As the 'break-even' RPM-point is then too high for normal street & road riding use !
However if you have the later '60-watt' 6-pole alt.model, then the break-even point can be made reasonable for the type of riding which you choose to do. ...
Besides modifying the charging-system, it would also help to lower the break-even RPM by replacing the std.tail-light bulb with a newer LED-type of tail-light bulb.
" My Monza doesn't have any other reason to tear into it's motor, so I really don't want to take it apart just to modify it's stator or something.
So can one of the systems in this thread (or any other) make it worth my trouble to convert to 12 volts just so I could make use the desirable 55/60 watt headlight? "
____ While the two systems that I've posted (so far) in this thread could handle a normal/low-demand 12-volt battery system, it would be best to instead run the alternator's two power-windings in 'series' (rather than parallel), for use with such a high-power light as you wish to use.
__ I actually have already been meaning to next add another post to this thread about how a lower break-even RPM-point for a 12-volt system can be achieved without modifying the stock stator ! _ I'll try to get to that sooner, now that somebody has asked for such a solution.
" So being already familiar with most topics here, I think I've chosen the best thread for this post of mine. "
____ THANKS for being so considerate, for bothering to use an existing thread for your related inquiry !
" I'll add here that I also have a junkbike (not really good enough to still call it a real "DUKE") "
____ If your "junkbike" has a fairly complete motor plus (at least) a bare-frame, then I proclaim that it's still good enough to be referred to as a real 'DUKE' !!
" It's motor seems frozen solid, and I was told that it's suposed to be a 5speed but that it only had a couple gears that work. "
____ That's a common occurrence which is caused by the shifter-box being installed while out-of-sync with it's trans.gear selector-drum.
But to prove this to be the actual situation, we first ought to get your piston unfrozen, (as I assume you got that DUKE from the old-owner due to it being left uncared for, for many years?). _ So soon as you can, squirt some thin oil in through it's cyl.head plug-hole.
__ I hope you'll see fit to move this topic to it's own thread. _ If you wish help with this, I'll be glad to get you started thru it !
DUCATIly,
DCT-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
-
DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
NOTE that this is a NEW post, (not a reply-post), and therefore is about ANOTHER (3rd) proposed electrical-system for this thread's covered models of (twin-wirelead) Ducati-alternators.
_____ THIS post is about converting either the 4-pole '40-watt' or the 6-pole '60-watt' alt.systems for use with 12-volt batteries & loads, WITHOUT HAVING TO MODIFY THE ALT.STATOR !
While the two previous systems could be used with either 6 or 12 volt systems, they're both best suited for use with 6-volt systems, (due to the break-even RPM-point being somewhat raised for 12v) ! _ But with THIS proposed 12-volt system, the 'break-even' point is kept low as possible (at all times) !
___ The problem which must be addressed with this system is the fact that Ducati chose to ground the two alt.coil-winding lead-ends to their alt.stator. _ It's because of that inconvenient connection, that we must take the unconventional step of avoiding 'GROUND' -(frame-ground type circuiting) !
I have only tried this particular conversion on just one low-mileage & like-new (for 9-years old at the time), 4-speed 250Monza (which I owned for only a short time, since 4-speed models were then considered undesirable). _ And this conversion-job wasn't really too hard to do, (compared to the alternative) ! ...
What must be done is to add extra wires to take the place of the normal 'ground' circuits.
__ The headlight is the easiest to deal with! - Ya just run a (black 16Ga) wire from the battery's NEG.pole, up into the headlamp to then take the place of the short wire that's been being used to connect the bulb-holder to the grounding-point within the lamp-shell.
__ Next, the tail-light support-bracket must be ungrounded, by either mounting it on a plastic-fender, or isolating it with rubber-spacers & rubber-washers which is what I did to the Monza. _ Then simply add a (black 16Ga) wire, attached to that bracket and connected to the NEG.post of the battery.
__ For the horn, I had to drill the two holes slightly larger in the horn-button/HiLo-switch 'cover-cap', and add a small plastic-washer under the head of each of it's two mounting-screws. _ Then, using a (black 18Ga) wire with it's tip-end stripped & soldered (flatly) and placed just under & against that cover-cap (I never bothered to seriously try to solder it to the cover-cap),, route that added 'ground-wire' back to the battery's NEG.post.
__ Last (& most difficult) is to un-ground the points-plate...
I took a stock points-plate and used some washers & a 3/8th" bolt & nut to hold it tightly by it's center-hole, so that the bolt with the plate could then be inserted into (& grabbed by the chuck of) my hand-drill. _ Then while the hand-drill spun the plate, I used a rotory-sander, (didn't have a wheel-grinder at the time), to grind-off about 1mm from the points-plate's outer-edge.
This was done so I could insulate the points-plate with a piece of rubber which I had cut -(donut-shaped & almost 4mm larger in diameter than the plate, plus two small holes for the plate's screws), from a used tire-innertube. _ Then with a plastic-washer -(with one side-edge cut-down to clear the outer-edge of the rubber-tubing insulator-piece), placed under the heads of each of the plate's two locking-screws,, the points-plate was then fully isolated from 'ground'.
With this set-up, I used dual-conductor coaxial type of wire -(a round cable-wire with both a center-wire & an outer sheath of braided-wire), to make both the connection of the points & condenser to the ign.coil as well as the connection from the battery's NEG.post to the points-plate. - (I used it's center-wire to connect the plate to the battery, and it's outer-sheath conductor to connect the contact-points to ign.coil.)
__ Rather than route each of all the separate added 'ground-wires' to the battery's NEG.post directly, it's better to instead connect them all to just one (black 14Ga) wire, that's directly-connected to the battery's NEG.post.
___ Back when I did this project, I retained the Monza's original black-box but, removed most of it's original-guts and used it to house a set of four power-diodes arranged & used as a bridge-rectifier. _ However instead of that, I'd now suggest using one of the modern fullwave-bridge rectifier-blocks (by itself, without retaining the stock black-box).
__ To the rect.block's pair of AC-inputs, are connected the stock-alternator's pair of wire-leads, (that's one wire-lead to each AC-input).
The rect.block's POSitive-output gets connected (electrically) to the battery's POS.post, and the rect.block's NEGative-output gets (electrically) connected to the battery's NEG.post.
__ Back when I made this particular conversion to 12 volts, I had chosen to use a pair of 6-volt batteries connected in series. - (Back then, there was a common 6-volt battery which had measurements of [roughly] 2.25 x 2.75 x 5.25, of which two such units bound together, would fit where the stock-battery did, fairly well.)
Later, (for newer 12v projects), I discovered that the Yamaha-250/350 twins (of the early '70s), used a suitably sized battery which fit DUKEs quite well, (for just a single [12-volt] battery) !
____ Ya may wonder if this project (of adding all the 'ground-wires', etc), is any easier (overall), than just going-ahead & modifying the alt.stator (for use with a standard-ground/normal electrical-system). ...
Well if ya ever were to complete both alternatives, then I'm sure you'd agree that this system is easier to get accomplished. - (Providing that you even had the means to be able to accomplish the other -[stator modification] project ! - [Due to the tools needed for that conversion-job!].)
____ Please ask any questions !
DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob
PS. I still have at least one more related system to add to this particular thread ! _ So please stay-tuned.
_____ THIS post is about converting either the 4-pole '40-watt' or the 6-pole '60-watt' alt.systems for use with 12-volt batteries & loads, WITHOUT HAVING TO MODIFY THE ALT.STATOR !
While the two previous systems could be used with either 6 or 12 volt systems, they're both best suited for use with 6-volt systems, (due to the break-even RPM-point being somewhat raised for 12v) ! _ But with THIS proposed 12-volt system, the 'break-even' point is kept low as possible (at all times) !
___ The problem which must be addressed with this system is the fact that Ducati chose to ground the two alt.coil-winding lead-ends to their alt.stator. _ It's because of that inconvenient connection, that we must take the unconventional step of avoiding 'GROUND' -(frame-ground type circuiting) !
I have only tried this particular conversion on just one low-mileage & like-new (for 9-years old at the time), 4-speed 250Monza (which I owned for only a short time, since 4-speed models were then considered undesirable). _ And this conversion-job wasn't really too hard to do, (compared to the alternative) ! ...
What must be done is to add extra wires to take the place of the normal 'ground' circuits.
__ The headlight is the easiest to deal with! - Ya just run a (black 16Ga) wire from the battery's NEG.pole, up into the headlamp to then take the place of the short wire that's been being used to connect the bulb-holder to the grounding-point within the lamp-shell.
__ Next, the tail-light support-bracket must be ungrounded, by either mounting it on a plastic-fender, or isolating it with rubber-spacers & rubber-washers which is what I did to the Monza. _ Then simply add a (black 16Ga) wire, attached to that bracket and connected to the NEG.post of the battery.
__ For the horn, I had to drill the two holes slightly larger in the horn-button/HiLo-switch 'cover-cap', and add a small plastic-washer under the head of each of it's two mounting-screws. _ Then, using a (black 18Ga) wire with it's tip-end stripped & soldered (flatly) and placed just under & against that cover-cap (I never bothered to seriously try to solder it to the cover-cap),, route that added 'ground-wire' back to the battery's NEG.post.
__ Last (& most difficult) is to un-ground the points-plate...
I took a stock points-plate and used some washers & a 3/8th" bolt & nut to hold it tightly by it's center-hole, so that the bolt with the plate could then be inserted into (& grabbed by the chuck of) my hand-drill. _ Then while the hand-drill spun the plate, I used a rotory-sander, (didn't have a wheel-grinder at the time), to grind-off about 1mm from the points-plate's outer-edge.
This was done so I could insulate the points-plate with a piece of rubber which I had cut -(donut-shaped & almost 4mm larger in diameter than the plate, plus two small holes for the plate's screws), from a used tire-innertube. _ Then with a plastic-washer -(with one side-edge cut-down to clear the outer-edge of the rubber-tubing insulator-piece), placed under the heads of each of the plate's two locking-screws,, the points-plate was then fully isolated from 'ground'.
With this set-up, I used dual-conductor coaxial type of wire -(a round cable-wire with both a center-wire & an outer sheath of braided-wire), to make both the connection of the points & condenser to the ign.coil as well as the connection from the battery's NEG.post to the points-plate. - (I used it's center-wire to connect the plate to the battery, and it's outer-sheath conductor to connect the contact-points to ign.coil.)
__ Rather than route each of all the separate added 'ground-wires' to the battery's NEG.post directly, it's better to instead connect them all to just one (black 14Ga) wire, that's directly-connected to the battery's NEG.post.
___ Back when I did this project, I retained the Monza's original black-box but, removed most of it's original-guts and used it to house a set of four power-diodes arranged & used as a bridge-rectifier. _ However instead of that, I'd now suggest using one of the modern fullwave-bridge rectifier-blocks (by itself, without retaining the stock black-box).
__ To the rect.block's pair of AC-inputs, are connected the stock-alternator's pair of wire-leads, (that's one wire-lead to each AC-input).
The rect.block's POSitive-output gets connected (electrically) to the battery's POS.post, and the rect.block's NEGative-output gets (electrically) connected to the battery's NEG.post.
__ Back when I made this particular conversion to 12 volts, I had chosen to use a pair of 6-volt batteries connected in series. - (Back then, there was a common 6-volt battery which had measurements of [roughly] 2.25 x 2.75 x 5.25, of which two such units bound together, would fit where the stock-battery did, fairly well.)
Later, (for newer 12v projects), I discovered that the Yamaha-250/350 twins (of the early '70s), used a suitably sized battery which fit DUKEs quite well, (for just a single [12-volt] battery) !
____ Ya may wonder if this project (of adding all the 'ground-wires', etc), is any easier (overall), than just going-ahead & modifying the alt.stator (for use with a standard-ground/normal electrical-system). ...
Well if ya ever were to complete both alternatives, then I'm sure you'd agree that this system is easier to get accomplished. - (Providing that you even had the means to be able to accomplish the other -[stator modification] project ! - [Due to the tools needed for that conversion-job!].)
____ Please ask any questions !
DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob
PS. I still have at least one more related system to add to this particular thread ! _ So please stay-tuned.
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
-
DucBevellvr
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:02 pm
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
DCT-Bob,
it's been a while, as for some reason I have much trouble getting and staying logged in,
so I decided to put my tarty responce in the following (refresher) form and typed it up ahead of time so I could quickly copy it over to this forum page, to more quickly get it posted before I need to log in again!
ME:
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? "
DCT-B:_Does it have a 4-speed or a 5-speed trans/box?
ME:
My Monza has a 5-speed tranny!
DCT-B:_I gather that you've already realized that the stock ALTERNATOR is not actually a real 'magneto' or a real 'generator' .
ME:
Right, I already did. Because everything I have ever read by Ducati about their power chargers, states "alternator"! (And I think magnetos are supposed to make high tension energy, and generators only make DC, correct?)
DCT-B:_However if you have the later '60-watt' 6-pole alt.model, then the break-even point can be made reasonable for the type of riding which you choose to do.
ME:
So since I have the 5-speed model, it should have the 60watt version, correct?
DCT-B:_Besides modifying the charging-system, it would also help to lower the break-even RPM by replacing the std.tail-light bulb with a newer LED-type of tail-light bulb.
ME:
I do plan to do that!
Could I also get that type of light for my stock headlamp?
DCT-B:_ it would be best to instead run the alternator's two power-windings in 'series' (rather than parallel), for use with such a high-power light as you wish to use.
__ I actually have already been meaning to next add another post to this thread about how a lower break-even RPM-point for a 12-volt system can be achieved without modifying the stock stator !
ME:
I have since been digesting that new post, and it all seemed easy enough to get done but, I really don't much care for the idea of having to do that messing around with the points & condenser plate.
If only Ducati had not grounded the power coil windings inside the alternator, as otherwise I'd be able to go ahead and do what I want, so easily!!
DCT-B: _ So soon as you can, squirt some thin oil in through it's cyl.head plug-hole.
ME:
I did that back when I first got that "DUKE" in 2007!
I pulled the sparkplug and poored a can of 2-stroke oil into the cylinder until it was full, then put the plug back in. I checked it again (for the first time) last week, and with a flashlight I couldn't see any level of that oil still in there, so I hope it didn't ALL leak out (to the crankcase) very soon after I poored it in!
I sprayed the rest I had of a old can of WD-40 in there, (after comparing it's weight to a new unused can), so I have about 3oz of that in there now.
When I get time on my next vacation, I'll see about trying to pull the head and have a good look in there to see if there's any chance to free the engine up.
DCT-B:_ I hope you'll see fit to move this topic to it's own thread. _ If you wish help with this, I'll be glad to get you started thru it !
ME:
Of course I would like to do my part to help keep topics properly sorted!
Here I've been praising this Duc website for staying on it's rightful course, and then I myself mix topics up.
I always meant to place about 3 different posts back when I first redistered but, I had so much trouble getting logged back in that once I finally did, I wanted to get it all done before I ran into any more trouble.
As soon as I get another break alone by myself, I will see about getting all my posted topics properly placed.
Because I believe it would be helpful for everyone to care as much!
Bevel Cheers,
Jeff
it's been a while, as for some reason I have much trouble getting and staying logged in,
so I decided to put my tarty responce in the following (refresher) form and typed it up ahead of time so I could quickly copy it over to this forum page, to more quickly get it posted before I need to log in again!
ME:
I really want to know if there's any way to cheaply convert it to 12 volts so I could use a 12v 55w quartz/halogen bulb for it's headlight, for normal street/road use? "
DCT-B:_Does it have a 4-speed or a 5-speed trans/box?
ME:
My Monza has a 5-speed tranny!
DCT-B:_I gather that you've already realized that the stock ALTERNATOR is not actually a real 'magneto' or a real 'generator' .
ME:
Right, I already did. Because everything I have ever read by Ducati about their power chargers, states "alternator"! (And I think magnetos are supposed to make high tension energy, and generators only make DC, correct?)
DCT-B:_However if you have the later '60-watt' 6-pole alt.model, then the break-even point can be made reasonable for the type of riding which you choose to do.
ME:
So since I have the 5-speed model, it should have the 60watt version, correct?
DCT-B:_Besides modifying the charging-system, it would also help to lower the break-even RPM by replacing the std.tail-light bulb with a newer LED-type of tail-light bulb.
ME:
I do plan to do that!
Could I also get that type of light for my stock headlamp?
DCT-B:_ it would be best to instead run the alternator's two power-windings in 'series' (rather than parallel), for use with such a high-power light as you wish to use.
__ I actually have already been meaning to next add another post to this thread about how a lower break-even RPM-point for a 12-volt system can be achieved without modifying the stock stator !
ME:
I have since been digesting that new post, and it all seemed easy enough to get done but, I really don't much care for the idea of having to do that messing around with the points & condenser plate.
If only Ducati had not grounded the power coil windings inside the alternator, as otherwise I'd be able to go ahead and do what I want, so easily!!
DCT-B: _ So soon as you can, squirt some thin oil in through it's cyl.head plug-hole.
ME:
I did that back when I first got that "DUKE" in 2007!
I pulled the sparkplug and poored a can of 2-stroke oil into the cylinder until it was full, then put the plug back in. I checked it again (for the first time) last week, and with a flashlight I couldn't see any level of that oil still in there, so I hope it didn't ALL leak out (to the crankcase) very soon after I poored it in!
I sprayed the rest I had of a old can of WD-40 in there, (after comparing it's weight to a new unused can), so I have about 3oz of that in there now.
When I get time on my next vacation, I'll see about trying to pull the head and have a good look in there to see if there's any chance to free the engine up.
DCT-B:_ I hope you'll see fit to move this topic to it's own thread. _ If you wish help with this, I'll be glad to get you started thru it !
ME:
Of course I would like to do my part to help keep topics properly sorted!
Here I've been praising this Duc website for staying on it's rightful course, and then I myself mix topics up.
I always meant to place about 3 different posts back when I first redistered but, I had so much trouble getting logged back in that once I finally did, I wanted to get it all done before I ran into any more trouble.
As soon as I get another break alone by myself, I will see about getting all my posted topics properly placed.
Because I believe it would be helpful for everyone to care as much!
Bevel Cheers,
Jeff
-
DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: Methods to Increase Power from N-C twin-wirelead Alternators
" My Monza has a 5-speed tranny! "
____ Then that DUKE of yours should have the '60-watt' alternator which can indeed be simply modified to charge a 12-volt battery & run that powerful 55-watt light you wish to run.
__ However, if you're in a state where you're required to run lights-ON at all times while riding, then you might want to choose a 40/45-watt bulb, if you intend to do mostly city-riding.
" (And I think magnetos are supposed to make high tension energy, and generators only make DC, correct?) "
____ Correct on both! _ At least that's always been MY understanding !
Does anybody else happen to think that they KNOW otherwise? _ If so, then please explain with more than just a simple 'yes' answer.
Then I'll tell ya why I think otherwise.
" So since I have the 5-speed model, it should have the 60watt version, correct? "
____ Since you're actually referring to a 5-speed "MONZA" model, that really ought to be the case,, as I've never seen a stock 5-speed Monza that came with the previous 40watt-alt version.
However, concerning Ducati's known past practices, I wouldn't be too awfully surprised if they had either made a few with that particular combo, or made a few 4-speed versions with the 60watt-alt.
" Could I also get that type of light for my stock headlamp? "
____ Not sure! _ I know they do make 12-volt LED-lights which could cover that job well enough, but I don't know if any are specially made to fit for use as a 'head-light', because I've heard or read that 'LED-lights' have specifically been made illegal for use as head-lights in at least some states.
If such LED-lights are made for foreign-countries, I'd still get & use them, (cuz who's gonna know or really care?) !
I guess that in order to be legal, they have to be called "fog lights".
__ I surely doubt that a 6-volt LED-bulb is made to fit the stock bulb-holder (of the older Monza headlamps which use the separate reflector 3-piece set-up), but there might be a 12-volt version that could fit. ...
Check-out the LED-unit -(upper-pic, below), found at the following link.....
http://www.sourcingmap.com/led-white-ca ... 41574.html
That's one w.site (of many) where you could look to find a possible perfect-fit, as they seem to have at least 64 types to choose from.
__ How were you planning to fit a Q.Halogen 55/60-bulb into your stock-headlamp? _ Cuz if you have that fitment issue solved, then you could probably use the H4-type LED-unit -(pic added at bottom) which I found at that same w.site... (click-on '5', at right, [of the link's page]).....
http://www.sourcingmap.com/smd-car-vehi ... 59707.html
__ (If anyone-else finds any brighter and/or cheaper suitable LED-lights, then please post that info within a new thread [ with a topic-title including "LED"] !)
" I have since been digesting that new post, and it all seemed easy enough to get done but, I really don't much care for the idea of having to do that messing around with the points & condenser plate. "
____ Isolating the points-plate from ground may not be necessary with the use of a points-activated electronic-ignition system -(an add-on black-box unit).
bevelDUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob
PS. I'll get to your other subject later.
____ Then that DUKE of yours should have the '60-watt' alternator which can indeed be simply modified to charge a 12-volt battery & run that powerful 55-watt light you wish to run.
__ However, if you're in a state where you're required to run lights-ON at all times while riding, then you might want to choose a 40/45-watt bulb, if you intend to do mostly city-riding.
" (And I think magnetos are supposed to make high tension energy, and generators only make DC, correct?) "
____ Correct on both! _ At least that's always been MY understanding !
Does anybody else happen to think that they KNOW otherwise? _ If so, then please explain with more than just a simple 'yes' answer.
Then I'll tell ya why I think otherwise.
" So since I have the 5-speed model, it should have the 60watt version, correct? "
____ Since you're actually referring to a 5-speed "MONZA" model, that really ought to be the case,, as I've never seen a stock 5-speed Monza that came with the previous 40watt-alt version.
However, concerning Ducati's known past practices, I wouldn't be too awfully surprised if they had either made a few with that particular combo, or made a few 4-speed versions with the 60watt-alt.
" Could I also get that type of light for my stock headlamp? "
____ Not sure! _ I know they do make 12-volt LED-lights which could cover that job well enough, but I don't know if any are specially made to fit for use as a 'head-light', because I've heard or read that 'LED-lights' have specifically been made illegal for use as head-lights in at least some states.
If such LED-lights are made for foreign-countries, I'd still get & use them, (cuz who's gonna know or really care?) !
I guess that in order to be legal, they have to be called "fog lights".
__ I surely doubt that a 6-volt LED-bulb is made to fit the stock bulb-holder (of the older Monza headlamps which use the separate reflector 3-piece set-up), but there might be a 12-volt version that could fit. ...
Check-out the LED-unit -(upper-pic, below), found at the following link.....
http://www.sourcingmap.com/led-white-ca ... 41574.html
That's one w.site (of many) where you could look to find a possible perfect-fit, as they seem to have at least 64 types to choose from.
__ How were you planning to fit a Q.Halogen 55/60-bulb into your stock-headlamp? _ Cuz if you have that fitment issue solved, then you could probably use the H4-type LED-unit -(pic added at bottom) which I found at that same w.site... (click-on '5', at right, [of the link's page]).....
http://www.sourcingmap.com/smd-car-vehi ... 59707.html
__ (If anyone-else finds any brighter and/or cheaper suitable LED-lights, then please post that info within a new thread [ with a topic-title including "LED"] !)
" I have since been digesting that new post, and it all seemed easy enough to get done but, I really don't much care for the idea of having to do that messing around with the points & condenser plate. "
____ Isolating the points-plate from ground may not be necessary with the use of a points-activated electronic-ignition system -(an add-on black-box unit).
bevelDUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob
PS. I'll get to your other subject later.
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PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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