By: sjm44 ...
" I tried to print the diagrams
but they all appear to be locked. They will not print with any the programs I tried. "
____ I'd think that none posted here are restricted, so I'd rather assume that you just happen to be experiencing printer-issues of your-own...
So have you also recently tried printing any other jpeg-pix which you've known to have previously-before printed-out (WITHOUT whatever the current-issue you've now-been running-into here) ?
And if THOSE pix (of yours) still print-out okay, then I suggest that you download our pix from here* & into the same folder which your-own pix print-out okay from.
(* Don't try to download the reduced-sized pix directly from the thread-page,, but rather, first click-on such a pic, and-then choose to download it's full-sized version.)
____ BTW, if you'd like any helpful-guidance with choosing wire-gauges (or anything-else of the sort) for your wire-harness project,, then please be sure to ask.
By: Ventodue ...
" 'cos otherwise Bob will get all perturbed and uppity again ... "
____ It's rather odd how some readers of the post-wording within a number of my thread-posts, often inject into the jest of my INTENDED-meaning, THEIR very-OWN particular 'mind-set' of emotional/side-motivation for my post's chosen-wording. ...
While I'll admit that there probably have been a very-FEW times when my initially written-word may have actually reflected such a less than neutral mind-set of my-own, by the time I actually LEAVE my posted-post left-standing as-is, it's then meant to be presented in a rather neutral-light, at WORST !
__ I don't ever get 'perturbed',, and generally, not even 'uppity'.
I'm sorry that I don't believe in adding hugs&kisses to MY-posts (in attempt so-that my post-readers won't feel negatively-upset). _ Just know that my posts are ONLY what they are, and nothing-more ! - (So please don't be bothered with trying to GUESS if I'm upset or not.)
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
Electrical questions
Moderator: ajleone
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DewCatTea-Bob
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Printing-issue
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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Harvey
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:05 am
- Location: Coffs Harbour. Australia.
Re: Electrical questions
by DewCatTea-Bob » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:14 pm
[quote= Ventodue ...
" This is taken from the January 1966 owner's handbook for the 250 GT, Monza and Mach 1, "
____ It seems that even after I'm long-gone, there will still be those who'll go-by that particular diagram-scheme, even though I've already pointed-out it's shortcoming at-least twice before.
Here's a link to the most recent time... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1113&p=7571&#p7570
__ I'll have to check MY-OWN original owner's manuals to see for myself that any of them actually include this very-SAME diagram-scheme, because this-ONE that's posted (so far), contains an ERROR ! _ And anyone who connects-up the ign.power-wire to the key-switch as shown, WILL experience battery-rundown ! _ And the reason is because the ign.system will then draw it's power-consumption from a regulator-circuit (red-wire) that's meant to just monitor the battery, ONLY !
With the ign.system properly drawing it's power from the load-side of the regulator (gray-wire), the regulator will then properly-adjust it's charging-current to the battery & load-system !
__ I've now posted* a CORRECT-version of the earlier-posted diagram-scheme,
(* as seen directly BELOW).
Bob there is no chance that current will flow backwards through the SCRs, into the triggering circuit of the regulator, to go to ground through the ignition circuit. Just can’t happen.
Harvey.
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
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Re: Electrical questions
____ And you feel the need to state such as that, exactly BECAUSE... ? ? ?Harvey wrote:And the reason is because the ign.system will then draw it's power-consumption from a regulator-circuit (red-wire) that's meant to just monitor the battery, ONLY !
Bob there is no chance that current will flow backwards through the SCRs, into the triggering circuit of the regulator, to go to ground through the ignition circuit. Just can’t happen.
____ Harvey, I really do actually especially-appreciate your input on anything electrical, (as it helps keep me on my toes),, but I suggest that you had better start paying better attention to that which you think you're addressing, and-also that your response-wording makes the intended-sense which you actually expect it to. _ Cuz even-though you've boldized my posted-wording in question, I still really don't understand exactly-what has motivated you to bother-with stating your (rather peculiar) posted-point,, (as your stated-wording seems to come-across as-if it means to contradict something-ELSE I may have meant to convey within my quoted-statement).
Until you explain exactly-what point you think needs better-addressed, I can only assume that you've somehow misunderstood my stated post-wording. ...
__ Such misinterpretation-issue has been occurring on a somewhat regular happenstance (with only yourself),, and-so I've been meaning to point-out to you (or any other reader), that if my chosen-wording doesn't seem to make perfect-sense to-you, then-rather it's THEN most-likely that it's YOUR interpretation that's at actual-fault, and is actually that which really requires correction, (rather than any point I've stated).
__ I really don't know if it will help or not (to make any difference in YOUR point), but had you already realized that the regulator-unit (that's involved with the established thread-discussion), is actually that of a narrow-case model ?
Cuz if you had carefully-picked your chosen-wording, THEN it's fairly-clear that you hadn't realized that my quoted-statement was in regards to the n-c.regulator-unit's battery-charging indicator-circuit, (which a w-c.type reg.unit doesn't-even have !).
__ You should be aware that the n-c.type & w-c.type reg.units work on quite-different regulation-effects ! _ And the w-c.unit doesn't-even employ a red-wire that's switched by the key-switch.
The red-wire that runs up-to the n-c.type ign.switch, is supposed to only power JUST the battery-charging warning-light ! _ And if the ign.system-load is allowed to be tapped-in to that circuit, it will then have DIRECT-access to the battery without the n-c.regulator being enabled to adjust according-to the TOTAL load-system, (thus-then allowing the battery to become discharged).
____ If everything I've posted here is pretty-much irrelevant to whatever your particular point is meant to actually be concerned-with, then I'm afraid you're going to have to be MUCH more clear about exactly-what you're actually trying to make point-of. _ Cuz left as-is so-far, you then may-as-well have just-as-soon pointed-out "that there is no chance" that what my quoted-statement is concerning, could possibly have anything to-do with the price of tea in China,, (and seemingly be equally just as irrelevant).
Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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Harvey
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:05 am
- Location: Coffs Harbour. Australia.
Re: Electrical questions
I was a bit brief in my reply, I guess I don’t like using a lot of words. 
The way I read your post is that, you are saying that if the wiring is connected the way it is shown in this picture, that when the key is turned off, there will still be a battery drain, as the current will flow through the regulator, out the voltage sense wire, back to ignition coil connection at the ignition switch and to flow to ground through the ignition coil, to drain the battery.
http://s468.photobucket.com/user/Ventod ... d.jpg.html
If that is what you are meaning, then my reply is that, the current cannot flow back through the regulator, regardless of the type of regulator.
The way I read your post is that, you are saying that if the wiring is connected the way it is shown in this picture, that when the key is turned off, there will still be a battery drain, as the current will flow through the regulator, out the voltage sense wire, back to ignition coil connection at the ignition switch and to flow to ground through the ignition coil, to drain the battery.
http://s468.photobucket.com/user/Ventod ... d.jpg.html
If that is what you are meaning, then my reply is that, the current cannot flow back through the regulator, regardless of the type of regulator.
Harvey.
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Misunderstanding Explained...
[quote= Harvey ...
" The way I read your post is that, you are saying that if the wiring is connected the way it is shown in this picture, that when the key is turned off, there will still be a battery drain, as the current will flow through the regulator, out the voltage sense wire, back to ignition coil connection at the ignition switch and to flow to ground through the ignition coil, to drain the battery. "
____ OHH ! _ Now I realize what you had thought I had meant to indicate...
You assumed/figured that I was meaning to suggest that when the engine is key-switched off and-then just-happens to spin-down & stop in a position where the ign.points happen to be closed, that the battery will THEN be able to discharge, (draining through the circuit-path which you've already made note of).
But no, that's NOT what I had actually meant at all. _ (I wonder how many other-readers had also thought that that's what I had meant ?)
__ I guess I had assumed that my posted-wording was sufficient to indicate that I had actually-meant that the battery would 'run-down' WHILST the engine & charging-system are running.
That condition is able-to occur (with the incorrect key-switch connection) because the ign.system can then obtain it's power-draw DIRECTLY out-of the battery, with the regulator then unable to monitor the TOTAL system-load's total current-consumption,, and-so thus-then the stock-type regulator is fooled into not allowing more alt.power into the system (to help keep the battery charged).
__ Over the decades of working-on n-c.battery-powered Duke-models, I had come-across a number (under 10) of such DUKEs which were all wired/connected-up that same INCORRECT-way. _ And they ALL experienced the very-same symptoms ! ...
With lights left turned-off, the battery would still never seem to ever become fully charged-up,, and once the lights are turned-on, ya could run for about an hour before the headlight would become rather dim, and then another hour (or two, at most) before the ign.spark would then become too-weak to keep the engine running (with lights left on),, and turning-off the lights would-not always instantly solve the issue, (until after the battery rested unused for about a half-hour). - (I recall at-least a couple of times when I was left stuck on a country-road in the dead of night, waiting for the battery to rest-up & recover enough to get restarted back-up again,, and then having to ride a couple of miles in the dark before becoming confident of being able to once-again begin running with lights turned-on.)
I've had this particular occurrence happen my own-self, on two n-c.DUKEs I had purchased for my-own Duke-collection,, so I gather that it's not extremely uncommon to find a Monza or Sebring miss-wired that way. _ And it's merely-just THAT particular wire-connection (at the key-switch) which makes ALL the difference between a WELL-running charging-system and a condition which lets the battery run-down & leave ya out-of-commission !
____ As I had previously-mentioned I would-do, I have since finally looked-into all four owner's-manuals I have (with the fold-out diagram-page still intact), for battery-powered 250-models,, and ALL of them showed the questionable wire-connection at the key-switch, connected at the CORRECT-position !!
So I don't have any idea where that faulted-version originated from,, but for the sake of us all, THAT incorrect-version should be $#!+ canned, (and that incorrect-version that's posted in our-website's Tech-section & other w.sites, should be replaced !!).
" If that is what you are meaning, then my reply is that, the current cannot flow back through the regulator, regardless of the type of regulator. "
____ While it's likely now well-understood that that's NOT what I had-meant,, ACTUALLY, it ought-to be realized that the battery DOES-indeed bleed-down through it's connected reg/rect.circuit, (regardless of the actual-position of the wire-connection in question !) ! ... Although the current-leakage 'backwards' through that rect.circuit's diode-valves is so very-much reduced to such a miniscule 'leakage', that it's usually not a current-pathway that's ever needed to-be concerned with, (as a normal-charged battery may take several months to bleed-down, through that-way).
However I have often found rectifiers with weak valving-effect and-thus could let a fully-charged battery completely bleed-down to dead-status, in less than 2-weeks ! _ And-so I'd solve that leakage-problem by adding an extra power-diode, placed within the neg.ground wire-connection/circuit of the battery, (until I could later install an ign.switch* which could be wired-up to ALSO disconnect the reg/rect.circuit from the battery, as well). ... (I believe a fellow-member -[Bruce], chose to use a relay-circuit to take the battery off-line so-as to prevent any such leakage through his rectifier-setup.)
(* The std.w-c.type ign-switch is exactly that-type of 3-terninal switch, [which Ducati didn't bother-to take full advantage of] !)
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
DCT-Bob
" The way I read your post is that, you are saying that if the wiring is connected the way it is shown in this picture, that when the key is turned off, there will still be a battery drain, as the current will flow through the regulator, out the voltage sense wire, back to ignition coil connection at the ignition switch and to flow to ground through the ignition coil, to drain the battery. "
____ OHH ! _ Now I realize what you had thought I had meant to indicate...
You assumed/figured that I was meaning to suggest that when the engine is key-switched off and-then just-happens to spin-down & stop in a position where the ign.points happen to be closed, that the battery will THEN be able to discharge, (draining through the circuit-path which you've already made note of).
But no, that's NOT what I had actually meant at all. _ (I wonder how many other-readers had also thought that that's what I had meant ?)
__ I guess I had assumed that my posted-wording was sufficient to indicate that I had actually-meant that the battery would 'run-down' WHILST the engine & charging-system are running.
That condition is able-to occur (with the incorrect key-switch connection) because the ign.system can then obtain it's power-draw DIRECTLY out-of the battery, with the regulator then unable to monitor the TOTAL system-load's total current-consumption,, and-so thus-then the stock-type regulator is fooled into not allowing more alt.power into the system (to help keep the battery charged).
__ Over the decades of working-on n-c.battery-powered Duke-models, I had come-across a number (under 10) of such DUKEs which were all wired/connected-up that same INCORRECT-way. _ And they ALL experienced the very-same symptoms ! ...
With lights left turned-off, the battery would still never seem to ever become fully charged-up,, and once the lights are turned-on, ya could run for about an hour before the headlight would become rather dim, and then another hour (or two, at most) before the ign.spark would then become too-weak to keep the engine running (with lights left on),, and turning-off the lights would-not always instantly solve the issue, (until after the battery rested unused for about a half-hour). - (I recall at-least a couple of times when I was left stuck on a country-road in the dead of night, waiting for the battery to rest-up & recover enough to get restarted back-up again,, and then having to ride a couple of miles in the dark before becoming confident of being able to once-again begin running with lights turned-on.)
I've had this particular occurrence happen my own-self, on two n-c.DUKEs I had purchased for my-own Duke-collection,, so I gather that it's not extremely uncommon to find a Monza or Sebring miss-wired that way. _ And it's merely-just THAT particular wire-connection (at the key-switch) which makes ALL the difference between a WELL-running charging-system and a condition which lets the battery run-down & leave ya out-of-commission !
____ As I had previously-mentioned I would-do, I have since finally looked-into all four owner's-manuals I have (with the fold-out diagram-page still intact), for battery-powered 250-models,, and ALL of them showed the questionable wire-connection at the key-switch, connected at the CORRECT-position !!
So I don't have any idea where that faulted-version originated from,, but for the sake of us all, THAT incorrect-version should be $#!+ canned, (and that incorrect-version that's posted in our-website's Tech-section & other w.sites, should be replaced !!).
" If that is what you are meaning, then my reply is that, the current cannot flow back through the regulator, regardless of the type of regulator. "
____ While it's likely now well-understood that that's NOT what I had-meant,, ACTUALLY, it ought-to be realized that the battery DOES-indeed bleed-down through it's connected reg/rect.circuit, (regardless of the actual-position of the wire-connection in question !) ! ... Although the current-leakage 'backwards' through that rect.circuit's diode-valves is so very-much reduced to such a miniscule 'leakage', that it's usually not a current-pathway that's ever needed to-be concerned with, (as a normal-charged battery may take several months to bleed-down, through that-way).
However I have often found rectifiers with weak valving-effect and-thus could let a fully-charged battery completely bleed-down to dead-status, in less than 2-weeks ! _ And-so I'd solve that leakage-problem by adding an extra power-diode, placed within the neg.ground wire-connection/circuit of the battery, (until I could later install an ign.switch* which could be wired-up to ALSO disconnect the reg/rect.circuit from the battery, as well). ... (I believe a fellow-member -[Bruce], chose to use a relay-circuit to take the battery off-line so-as to prevent any such leakage through his rectifier-setup.)
(* The std.w-c.type ign-switch is exactly that-type of 3-terninal switch, [which Ducati didn't bother-to take full advantage of] !)
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
DCT-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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Harvey
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:05 am
- Location: Coffs Harbour. Australia.
Re: Electrical questions
That does make a difference Bob. 
If the switch has a bit of a voltage drop across it, the regulator's sense wire will read a lower voltage than the battery, due to the ignition coils current flow, thats on the same side of the switch, so it will keep charging to try to reach the same voltage as the battery's voltage on the other side of the switch.
Solid state rectifiers have very little reverse flow, but the older selenium rectifiers were prone to have a reverse flow due to corrosion on the plates.
If the switch has a bit of a voltage drop across it, the regulator's sense wire will read a lower voltage than the battery, due to the ignition coils current flow, thats on the same side of the switch, so it will keep charging to try to reach the same voltage as the battery's voltage on the other side of the switch.
Solid state rectifiers have very little reverse flow, but the older selenium rectifiers were prone to have a reverse flow due to corrosion on the plates.
Harvey.
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DewCatTea-Bob
- Posts: 2897
- Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
- Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan
Re: Electrical questions
[quote= Harvey ...
" That does make a difference Bob.
If the switch has a bit of a voltage drop across it, the regulator's sense wire will read a lower voltage than the battery, due to the ignition coils current flow, thats on the same side of the switch, so it will keep charging to try to reach the same voltage as the battery's voltage on the other side of the switch. "
____ Sorry Harvey, but I'm afraid to say that I can't seem to clearly make-out whatever the intended-sense of your posted-wording is really-supposed to-be meaning-to actually convey. ...
No-mater which-ever regulator-unit connected-wire I choose to think you may actually be in reference-to by it's "sense wire", I still can't seem to grasp what your intended-reasoning might actually exactly-be. _ (Less-use of words like "That" & "it", would help readers to then be enabled to concentrate their thinking-thoughts on whatever your actually-intended meanings !)
__ That term -("sense wire") of YOUR's, is just one of the things you've stated (in a previous-post) that had led me to think that you must be in reference to a WideCase-type regulator-unit ! _ Cuz the n-c.regulator doesn't employ any 'voltage-sensor', or even ANY specific kind of 'sensor' connected-to an external-wire !
__ Please explain WHICH regulator-wire you're actually in reference-to, (by at-least mentioning it's color), whenever you state: "sensor wire",, so I can then specifically-address what's actually what.
" Solid state rectifiers have very little reverse flow, but the older selenium rectifiers were prone to have a reverse flow due to corrosion on the plates. "
____ Right, good/modern diodes don't allow much reverse-leakage.
But I think my worst given-example was with an older n-c.rectifier-unit which had just one especially-leaky diode.
__ Concerning 'selenium-type' rectifiers,, they weren't too non-leaky, (relative to diodes), even when non-corroded. _ And gone-bad/poor examples could easily drain a battery in less than 4-days, (as I had well discovered, by the '70s).
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
" That does make a difference Bob.
If the switch has a bit of a voltage drop across it, the regulator's sense wire will read a lower voltage than the battery, due to the ignition coils current flow, thats on the same side of the switch, so it will keep charging to try to reach the same voltage as the battery's voltage on the other side of the switch. "
____ Sorry Harvey, but I'm afraid to say that I can't seem to clearly make-out whatever the intended-sense of your posted-wording is really-supposed to-be meaning-to actually convey. ...
No-mater which-ever regulator-unit connected-wire I choose to think you may actually be in reference-to by it's "sense wire", I still can't seem to grasp what your intended-reasoning might actually exactly-be. _ (Less-use of words like "That" & "it", would help readers to then be enabled to concentrate their thinking-thoughts on whatever your actually-intended meanings !)
__ That term -("sense wire") of YOUR's, is just one of the things you've stated (in a previous-post) that had led me to think that you must be in reference to a WideCase-type regulator-unit ! _ Cuz the n-c.regulator doesn't employ any 'voltage-sensor', or even ANY specific kind of 'sensor' connected-to an external-wire !
__ Please explain WHICH regulator-wire you're actually in reference-to, (by at-least mentioning it's color), whenever you state: "sensor wire",, so I can then specifically-address what's actually what.
" Solid state rectifiers have very little reverse flow, but the older selenium rectifiers were prone to have a reverse flow due to corrosion on the plates. "
____ Right, good/modern diodes don't allow much reverse-leakage.
But I think my worst given-example was with an older n-c.rectifier-unit which had just one especially-leaky diode.
__ Concerning 'selenium-type' rectifiers,, they weren't too non-leaky, (relative to diodes), even when non-corroded. _ And gone-bad/poor examples could easily drain a battery in less than 4-days, (as I had well discovered, by the '70s).
Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob
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