Wiring-I'm Confused

[Harvey]

__ I can now better understand why you haven't realized exactly where that rather very-thin current-flow actually goes-to (after passing-through the plug-gap), in order to completely-satisfy the secondary's electrical-demand for a completed circuit-pathway.
NOW do you think you realize how that's ACTUALLY done, (rather than through the battery) ? _ Or are you still waiting for me to go-ahead & explain it ?

" Well, Bob I could have a guess and say you are looking at the capacitor? "

____ RIGHT, Harvey ! _ The condenser is where the spark-juice goes !
(MIND-YOU that we're back-to the battery-powered ign.type, once-again [in THIS main-paragraph !].)
__ After the spark-juice passes-through the spark-gap, it then of-course needs-to get back to the other-side of the secondary-HT.circuit,, and it's shortest/simplest pathway is through the condenser-circuit !
But wait, HOW could the spark-juice possibly do THAT ? -(No-doubt SOMEone is wondering !)
Well it does SEEM like a condenser is a dead-end to current-flow and it IS indeed a road-block to the flow of the particular-electrons which had actually jumped-through the gap !
But what's possible to overlook, (as it seems Harvey had been doing), is that the condenser is a rather extremely large room for the relatively miniscule-amount of HT.secondary-electrons (cast-into the spark) to occupy, and-so they all get spread-out (on one-side of the cap.room) and lose their (otherwise combined) high-tension,, so then not-only does the condenser not get any chance to become exposed to high-voltage, it goes-on to do it's job & pass-on an equal amount of electrons (from the OTHER side of it's cap.room) onward-to the HT.secondary, so as to 'satisfy' it's electrical-circuit requirement !
So-therefore in-EFFECT, the secondary-circuit's current-flow (sort-of/virtually) passes-through the condenser, (rather than the battery, etc.),, as the condenser passes-on it's-own electrons to pay-back those which it had trapped, in order to completely satisfy the secondary-winding's demand for the (small number of) electrons which it had sent-out (into it's spark-plug circuit) !
__ Keep in mind that this is all possible BECAUSE of the fact that the actual number of electrons within the extremely thin HT.current-flow, is way-much smaller than the room-capacity in the condenser can facilitate, for the rather brief amount of time that the secondary-circuit is actually flowing it's rather miniscule current (of electrons) !
And-also note, that a condenser is LIKE a short-circuit (until it gets fairly-well charged),
and the amount of electrons within the spark-juice is way-too insufficient to charge-up the condenser !
(If the condenser were to be too-small, then this condenser-circuit would-not work as intended, and the spark-juice WOULD-then jump-over the points-gap [until the battery-circuit became the easier path to go-through]!)

I don’t think I have overlooked anything, just that you have an inaccurate understanding of the capacitor’s (condenser’s) role in the points circuit.
So I think it will make it easier to understand the facts if I go through, what the cap does, in the 12V DC circuit. Although it works the same in the Magneto’s circuit.
When the points close, the current flows through the Primary winding creating a magnetic field that rises up from the iron core passing through the windings, this produces an opposite potential against the primary flow to slow the rise. This is the reason we have a Dwell period, to charge the coil.
When the points start to open the resistance across them increases to reduce the current flowing, this reduction causes the magnetic field to start to collapse, inducing a current in the primary that will flow in the same direction, to try to put the field up again. If this current does flow it will slow the collapsing field, and the secondary voltage will be reduce, due to the slow magnetic movement. Remembering that it is the speed of the field going through the windings, that produces the voltage.
So the main function is to have the primary current completely stop when the points open, but as the points open slowly, the resistance across them slowly increases, till they are far enough apart to prevent, the induced voltage of about 250Volts, from jumping across them. As a compromise we can allow a small amount of the voltage to flow into the, low resistance capacitor, till the points are far enough apart to prevent any flow across them. If the capacity of the capacitor is too small, it will fill before the points are far enough apart, and will jump across (spark), and the induced current will flow in the primary killing the HT. If the capacitor is too big, too much current will flow into it also killing the HT. So the capacitor is chosen to JUST do the job, and no more. Hence the benefits of using a transistor instead of points, as it can go from low to high resistance instantly, so no capacitor is needed.

Ok now to look at you’re theory, that the secondary current will flow through the capacitor, back through the primary windings to get to the other end of the secondary winding. As I have said the capacitor is only big enough to take a small amount of the 250Volts in the primary, and its dielectric break down voltage is about 400Volts. So it hasn’t the capacity for the large amount of energy, that the secondary flow produces. Faced with this resistance the secondary voltage will rise, to blow a hole through the dielectric insulation of the capacitor, and flow back to the secondary, the way you say, but remembering that the battery circuit is parallel to the capacitor, and has a very low resistance, so wish as you may, that is the path that it will take, and the capacitor will survive to work again.
In short, If the capacitor was big enough to pass all the energy from the secondary, it would also pass all the energy induced in the primary.

“the 'flywheel-effect' spiked-voltage (that's caused by the collapsing flux-field within the stator-coil,”[/b
__ Please let me next explain...
While the ign.contact-points are closed-shut, the power-CURRENT within the alt.stator is shorted-circuited back-to itself, and during that time CURRENT-flow is then [b]MAXIMIZED,, and-so thus MAXIMUM-flux has then built-up around the stator-winding ! _ But next when the points open, the established HIGH current-flow is suddenly forced to instead go-through the impedance-resistance of the HT.coil's primary-winding, which (as you've pointed-out) causes a rather REACTIVE-inductance (which even more-so resists it's [sudden] current-flow), so-thus the voltage has to be raised-up in order to continue passing the very-same previously-established (short-circuited) current-flow which has next been diverted & forced to continue (through the primary-winding), due-to the (partially) collapsing flux-field around the stator-winding, (thus the 'flywheel-effect') !
So you-see, the desirable sudden (extra) voltage-RISE is-not built-up by merely-just one of those two effects alone, but rather due-to BOTH of them working-together to emulate a squeezing-effect* which causes there to be no-choice other than to increase the drive-voltage (so as to maintain the very-same/established current-flow) ! - (The fact that established flux-induced current-flow can-NOT be reduced, may seem unlikely,, but that's actually an established fact of physics !)
(* Or pincer/pinching-effect, if ya-will,, due-to the flywheel-effect's flux-FORCED current, being pushed-against the opposing 'reactive-inductance'.)
__ So bottom-line here, is that the SPIKED voltage-rise is what it is, only due-to BOTH of those effects (rather oppositely) working TOGETHER, (so that there's then NO-OTHER choice but for the primary-voltage to become spiked-up !).

[/quote]

This one is based on a false premise. That the stator winding has an increased energy, from the magnetic field collapsing around it.
At the time of Ignition, the stator winding has the flywheel magnet, directly above it, and the magnetic flux is passing through the stator’s winding producing energy in it. It does not stop, or collapse, it keeps producing energy, so there can be no “flywheel effect” or “the voltage being increased” due to a collapsing magnetic field, as the field remains the same through the whole ignition phase.
It is only the points opening, and the high impendence caused by the inductive reactance of the primary windings that causes the energy to change from high current to high voltage.

Cheers.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Harvey ...
" I don’t think I have overlooked anything, just that you have an inaccurate understanding of the capacitor’s (condenser’s) role in the points circuit. "

____ Harvey, just because I hadn't bothered to explain the condenser's COMPLETE role which it performs within the ign.system, does-not mean that MY understanding of it is "inaccurate" !
Furthermore, what I do understand (about points-type ign.systems) is-not JUST merely my-OWN understanding, but ALSO that of 'Ignition-systems 101' ! - (Of-which you-yourself have now made fairly apparent that you've partially forgotten some-of, [if you had EVER known of it all].)

So I think it will make it easier to understand the facts if I go through, what the cap does, in the DC circuit.
When the points close, the current flows through the Primary winding creating a magnetic field that rises up from the iron core passing through the windings, this produces an opposite potential against the primary flow to slow the rise. This is the reason we have a Dwell period, to charge the coil.
When the points start to open the resistance across them increases to reduce the current flowing, this reduction causes the magnetic field to start to collapse, inducing a current in the primary that will flow in the same direction, to try to put the field up again. If this current does flow it will slow the collapsing field, and the secondary voltage will be reduce, due to the slow magnetic movement. Remembering that it is the speed of the field going through the windings, that produces the voltage.
So the main function is to have the primary current completely stop when the points open, but as the points open slowly, the resistance across them slowly increases, till they are far enough apart to prevent, the induced voltage of about 250Volts, from jumping across them. As a compromise we can allow a small amount of the voltage to flow into the, low resistance capacitor, till the points are far enough apart to prevent any flow across them. If the capacity of the capacitor is too small, it will fill before the points are far enough apart, and will jump across (spark), and the induced current will flow in the primary killing the HT. If the capacitor is too big, too much current will flow into it also killing the HT. So the capacitor is chosen to JUST do the job, and no more.

____ All fairly-good related-info, most-all pretty-much right out of 'Ignition-systems 101' ! - (Anyone who has never been taught this basic ign.system-info, has been deprived by their High School , [either in Science-class or Auto-shop] !)


" If the capacity of the capacitor is too small, it will fill before the points are far enough apart, and will jump across (spark), and the induced current will flow in the primary "

____ Right, cuz the HT.coil's collapsing-field will force the primary-circuit's established current-flow to convert to whatever voltage is required to jump the point-gap (if the condenser doesn't have enough room to hold the pulse-charge) !



" If the capacitor is too big, too much current will flow into it also killing the HT. "

____ RIGHT, that's quite correct ! ... Exactly-because, if it really is TOO-big, then it will never get enough of it's time-constants fulfilled enough to stop acting like a short-circuit in-time, and then would cause the ign.system to behave as-if the contact-points had-not opened at the very-time when they actually had !



" Ok now to look at you’re theory, that the secondary current will flow through the capacitor, back through the primary windings to get to the other end of the secondary winding. "

____ Yes, RIGHT,, as it MUST-do in DC.powered ign.systems, (especially where there's NO battery-circuit) !
__ (And, it's not 'MY' "theory" ! ... It's merely well-known fact !, [although it's of-course not really fair to suggest that "current will flow though" the condenser, as it only does-so in a virtual-manor].)



" As I have said the capacitor is only big enough to take a small amount of the 250Volts in the primary, "

____ There is no such specific voltage (as "250Volts") that's much higher than that of the battery's voltage, within the primary-circuit,, so-long as the condenser-size is up-to absorbing all the 'flux-induced' current-flow after the points open ! _ (Although that 'flywheel-effect' may-possibly momentarily shove electrons into the condenser at a faster rate than they can become fully disbursed throughout the condenser's entire holding-room,, and-so THEN (in such case), briefly possibly slightly spike-up the voltage felt at the condenser [by an amount that's well-less than the condenser is rated to handle].)
__ I tend to wonder how the supposed "250Volts" could be expected to particularly exist anywhere within the primary-circuit,, cuz even-if the condenser wasn't large enough to fully absorb & prevent all of any such voltage build-up, then WHATEVER the possible built-up voltage-AMOUNT could be, it would specifically depend-on the relative sizes of the condenser & primary-coil/flux-field, (both of which vary somewhat, between the various ign.systems employed by different manufacturers),, so-thus to expect "250Volts", is fairly unlikely in any case.



" and its dielectric break down voltage is about 400Volts. So it hasn’t the capacity for the large amount of energy, that the secondary flow produces. Faced with this resistance the secondary voltage will rise, to blow a hole through the dielectric insulation of the capacitor, and flow back to the secondary, the way you say, "

____ That statement of yours is worded so clearly,, that it's now fairly quite-clear to me that not-only does it seem that you do-not fully-understand the evolved physics, you also didn't-even learn-of & correctly comprehend any of it from my previous-post, (so I guess I had overestimated your ability to grasp that which I had thought would be relatively-easy for the likes of anyone [with at-least a BASIC-understanding], such-as like yourself).
__ The involved condenser indeed DOES have the capacity to cope with ANY current-flow which the ign.coil passes, (either in the primary OR the secondary) ! ...
The HT/ign.coil does-NOT 'step-up' "energy" -(wattage), rather it merely alters the ratio of voltage to current ! _ So there is NO "large amount of energy" for the condenser to have to handle & deal-with ! ...
__ It should already be understood that the amount of energy -(power/wattage) coming-out of the HT.coil is actually NO-greater than that which goes into it !
And if what you had actually-meant by "energy", was really meant to be the large-amount of 'voltage' or 'tension',, then THAT is most-entirely DROPPED-across the plug-gap, so-therefore the condenser-itself is never subjected to any such HT.voltage, (rather, only-just the HT.secondary-circuit's MINISCULE current) !



" its dielectric break down voltage is about 400Volts.
Faced with this resistance the secondary voltage will rise, to blow a hole through the dielectric insulation of the capacitor, and flow back to the secondary, the way you say, "

____ That stated-wording is certainly WRONG, for two reasons ! ...
(You really should've learned from what I had STATED in my previous-post, [as most-anyone who already has a fairly-good grasp of this-stuff, should've understood] !) ...
__ FIRSTLY,, (directly concerning the condenser), there is NO "resistance" to the secondary-circuit's current-flow, (other than at the plug-gap),, because a discharged condenser is virtually the very-same as a SHORT-circuit, (as it can then pass-on an equal amount of electrons as it takes-in ! , [thus virtually completing the secondary-circuit !] ) _ Anyone who understands the workings of a condenser, knows this to be FACT !
And when such a circuit-component has no significant resistance (compared-to any other circuit-component), then IT will-NOT be subjected to any significant voltage-drop !
__ SECONDLY, (even-if the plug-gap were to-be reduced to zer0, thus-then making the condenser-itself a MAJOR circuit-load [instead of the plug-gap] ),, the relatively very-small amount of electrons within a secondary-pulse of current is insufficient to charge-up the condenser ! ... Anyone who has learned about how condensers -(& capacitors) become charged-up, knows that they need to be exposed to the DC.charging-source's voltage-level for 5 'time-constants' before they finally become fully charged-up to the same voltage-level as that of the voltage-source ! _ And considering the relatively large 'size' of the condenser in relation to the very-short length of time that the miniscule secondary-pulse -(spark) current-flow actually so briefly lasts,
it's most-likely that not-even the very 1st.time-constant is ever achieved ! _ So-therefore (even-THEN), the condenser could NEVER* become exposed to ANY voltage-level which it cannot handle ! - (* Since the condenser is always repeatedly bled back-down to it's discharged-state, until each time the contact-points reopen & un-ground it.)
(Although IF the duration-time of the secondary's current-pulse ever happened to last long-enough,, THEN yes, the resulted extreme HT.voltage-pressure would have had the chance to adequately build-up and-THEN indeed punch a hole through the dielectric/separator-wall within the condenser, [quite-likely well-before ever reaching a significant-fraction of the full HT.secondary voltage-level] !
Such a (fairly remote!) possibility is a reason why the condenser needs to be of a minimal-size, so that the VAST-majority of the HT.voltage is then always instead dropped-across the plug-gap, rather than getting any chance to build-up at the condenser, (in such event when there's no storage-battery circuit available to bleed-through} !)



" remembering that the battery circuit is parallel to the capacitor, and has a very low resistance, so wish as you may, that is the path that it will take, and the capacitor will survive to work again. "

____ Clearly Harvey, YOU need to bone-up on this stuff ! _ Cuz there's NO-need for the secondary's current-flow to pass-through the battery-circuit when the condenser is MORE like a short-circuit !
So it is-not I who should "wish", as the fact is ALREADY fact (without any wishing-help from myself) !
__ And by-the-way, the battery is-not exactly in parallel with the condenser, (as the condenser is in 'series' with the ign.coil, [and only part-of-the-time, at that] ).



" If the capacitor was big enough to pass all the energy from the secondary, it would also pass all the energy induced in the primary. "

____ I believe that what YOU are possibly meaning to make main-point of (with that [rather questionable] summation), is: is that the prospect of the condenser possibly passing all-of the primary's power-juice, would thus-then make the condenser pretty-much worthless to it's expected-purpose,, and-so thus-THEN, it therefore also can't be true that the condenser could pass the secondary's power-juice, either). ...
__ Well, your use of the term "energy", is fairly misleading on this speculated-issue...
Rather than proclaiming that condensers absorb & contain or "pass" mere "energy", they actually deal with quantities of 'electrons' ! _ And while the secondary-circuit flows a VERY-FEW electrons, (which is a relatively very-easy task for a condenser to deal-with),, conversely however, the primary-circuit flows a vastly-LARGER quantity of electrons, which tends-to fill-up the condenser at a much greater rate !
So-therefore it's not fair to indicate that the condenser handles both circuits rather equally !

____ Harvey, if you wish to continue-on arguing-out any of THIS (above) DC.ignition-matter any further (with me), then I'll have-to move it out of this-thread and into another of it's very-own,, cuz THIS-matter (on DC.ign.systems) has already gotten too-far off-topic for the original-topic (concerning a 160-type ign.system), and-so may otherwise further confuse-up anyone who's merely concerned with just such AC.powered-type ign.systems.





____ Now-NEXT onward-to a RELATED-matter of THIS-original thread-topic. .......



" This one is based on a false premise. That the stator winding has an increased energy, from the magnetic field collapsing around it. "

____ I'm thinking that rather your-own interpretation of my posted-wording is more-likely that which is at fault for your apparent disagreement. _ Cuz I never meant to indicate that there was any "increased energy" !
__ After you've read & understood THIS post, then try re-reading my previous-post on this particular aspect, and-see if you don't then correctly understand exactly-what I had (fairly clearly) ACTUALLY-meant to convey.



" At the time of Ignition, the stator winding has the flywheel magnet, directly above it, "

____ While that's not unfair to say,, actually, you must really mean that the North & South poles of all the rotor-magnets are MEANT to be aligned with the stator-poles (as near as possible) for max.generated-power near when the ignition is set to fire-off.


" and the magnetic flux is passing through the stator’s winding producing energy in it. It does not stop, or collapse, it keeps producing energy, "

____ Yes, but of-course THAT's certainly quite-true Harvey ! _ BUT my posted-point was not bothering to include any of such of those BASIC working-details,, rather than the permanently-established mag.field of the flywheel-rotor, I was RATHER in reference-to the temporary mag.field which becomes established due-TO the flowing current passing-through the stator-winding ITSELF, all on it's OWN ! ...
__ Most-everyone who understands this stuff correctly, realizes that ALL wires which are passing flowing-current through them, are then also surrounded with a resulting magnetic-field of their very-own (regardless of whether or not ANOTHER separate magnetic-field originally directly-induced the current-flow within) ! _ So-then it should be understood that the collapsing-mag.field which I-myself was particularly in actual reference-to, is actually that of the flowing-current within the stator-winding itself, (and NOT that of the rotor-magnets, [which of-course never collapses] ) !
__ Now the aspect which seems to-be like magic, is that even when the current-flow itself is stopped (or even merely 'impeded'), that SAME-amount of current/power-flow will-NOT seize UNTIL it's very-OWN established flux-field finally collapses ! _ So-therefore as THAT flux-field, (minor as it may relatively be), collapses,, it's established current-power MUST continue-on even if it has to auto-convert up-to whatever high-voltage is needed to fully-satisfy that collapsing-field's induced current-flow ! - THUS the 'flywheel-effect' !
(Note that it's 'power', rather than current or voltage alone, which builds the strength of a flux-field.)



" so there can be no “flywheel effect” or “the voltage being increased” due to a collapsing magnetic field, "

____ By NOW Harvey, you should finally understand why that statement of yours is NOT correct ! _ Cuz (as for one thing), ALL established flux-fields must induce that flywheel-effect into the current-flow (as the flowing is ended) !
And the short-circuited stator-winding's very-OWN (briefly)- established full-strength flux-field MUST-not be ignored ! _ Cuz when it's rather high established current-flow becomes impeded (by being diverted, [from the short-circuit through the contact-points], over-to the HT.coil primary-winding*), there's then NO-choice other-than for the established full-strength current-flow to auto-convert to whatever higher voltage is required to maintain the very-same flow of power (against the opposing reactance of the primary-coil) ! _ (* While the primary-coil may have a relatively low 'resistance', it's still rather quite a substantial resistance-change (compared-to the short-circuit !),, and also, the reactive-impedance of the primary-coil considerably compounds the total-resistance/impedance that the stator-winding's established current/power is pressure-forced against,, and all that opposition, FORCES the flowing-power's voltage to spike-upward !)
And that forced voltage-increase by-the-way, is of-course pretty-much just-what the-doctor-ordered to help build-up the spike-voltage for the HT.coil !
__ Harvey, you simply CAN'T deny this FACT !



" as the field remains the same through the whole ignition phase. "

____ Yeah, right, (more-or-less),, that-is, as far as the ALT.ROTOR's mag.field itself is concerned, however. _ (But I guess we're supposed to have been in room-202 now, not merely '101' any longer.)
__ (Anyone with your knowledge-level Harvey, shouldn't be remaining stuck back on 1st.base, when we've so obviously moved-onward to the more advanced details.)



" It is only the points opening, and the high impendence caused by the inductive reactance of the primary windings that causes the energy to change from high current to high voltage. "

____ Your included word "only", merely makes your statement fairly-true for a CD.type ign.system,, but by now, you really ought-to understand how the reactive-impedance -(reactance) effect (of the primary-winding) actually does-NOT work-alone all by itself to spike-up the primary-voltage in an ET.system like Ducati's !
__ So Harvey,, if you STILL fail to give-in & follow that which I've been trying to convey to your sense of reasoning, then I suggest that you get your grandson's science-teacher to submit a confirming-explanation.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[Harvey]

___ Now-next onward-to a RELATED-matter of THIS-original thread-topic. .......
" and the magnetic flux is passing through the stator’s winding producing energy in it. It does not stop, or collapse, it keeps producing energy, "

____ Yes, but of-course THAT's certainly quite-true Harvey ! _ I was RATHER in reference-to the temporary mag.field which becomes established due-TO the flowing current passing-through the stator-winding ITSELF, all on it's OWN ! ...
ALL wires which are passing flowing-current through them, are then also surrounded with a resulting magnetic-field of their very-own (regardless of whether or not ANOTHER separate magnetic-field originally directly-induced the current-flow within) ! _ So-then it should be understood that the collapsing-mag.field which I-myself was particularly in actual reference-to, is actually that of the flowing-current within the stator-winding itself, (and NOT that of the rotor-magnets, [which of-course never collapses] ) !
__ Now the aspect which seems to-be like magic, is that even when the current-flow itself is stopped (or even merely 'impeded'), that SAME-amount of current/power-flow will-NOT seize UNTIL it's very-OWN established flux-field finally collapses ! _ So-therefore as THAT flux-field, (minor as it may relatively be), collapses,, it's established current-power MUST continue-on even if it has to auto-convert up-to whatever high-voltage is needed to fully-satisfy that collapsing-field's induced current-flow ! - THUS the 'flywheel-effect' !
(Note that it's 'power', rather than current or voltage alone, which builds the strength of a flux-field.)

To try to sum up all that quote. I guess you are maintaining that; because the flywheel’s permanent magnet is producing a current in the alt windings, that there is also another magnetic field produced in the windings from the generated current flowing through that wiring.

Still a false premise. You are mixing two principals, so I will explain it to you “101 method”.

If a wire is connected across an electrical power source, to flow current through the wire, it will produce a magnetic field around the wire.

If a wire is connected across a light bulb, and a magnet produces a field across that wire, current will be produced to flow through the light bulb.

In the 160 alt winding, there is one magnetic field produced by the flywheel’s permanent magnet. There is no other power source, to produce any other field.

And the short-circuited stator-winding's very-OWN (briefly)- established full-strength flux-field MUST-not be ignored ! _ Cuz when it's rather high established current-flow becomes impeded (by being diverted, [from the short-circuit through the contact-points], over-to the HT.coil primary-winding*), there's then NO-choice other-than for the established full-strength current-flow to auto-convert to whatever higher voltage is required to maintain the very-same flow of power (against the opposing reactance of the primary-coil) !

Well I think you are now accepting the fact that the generated power produced by the charging coil does change from high current, low voltage, to high voltage low current, depending on the resistance of the circuit. Just the same as the secondary’s generated power changes from high voltage low current, across the resistance of the plug gap, to low voltage, high current across the low resistance of the rest of the secondary circuit.
The fact is that “energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another”.

Cheers.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Harvey ...
" I guess you are maintaining that; because the flywheel’s permanent magnet is producing a current in the alt windings, that there is also another magnetic field produced in the windings from the generated current flowing through that wiring. "

____ Well YES, of-course, (that's pretty-much correct),, BUT-not exactly BECAUSE the mag.rotor is the specific-source of the induced current-flow within the stator-winding,
but SIMPLY because current is flowing-through that wiring !


" Still a false premise. "

____ Exactly what IS it that you're meaning to claim is a "false premise" ? _ Cuz it seems fairly-clear that you're meaning to claim that the mag.rotor's flux-field is the ONLY field within the stator-winding (of a running alt).



" You are mixing two principals, "

____ How-so exactly ? _ (That may be presumptuous on your part [again], so are you sure that supposed 'mixing' isn't rather within just your-OWN concept-interpretation ?)



" If a wire is connected across an electrical power source, to flow current through the wire, it will produce a magnetic field around the wire. "

____ YES, that's quite TRUE ! - (Pre-101 stuff, actually.)


" If a wire is connected across a light bulb, and a magnet produces a field across that wire, current will be produced to flow through the light bulb. "

____ Yes, right...
And then-also anOTHER (slighter) flux-field will also next develop around the entire circuit-way !


" In the 160 alt winding, there is one magnetic field produced by the flywheel’s permanent magnet. There is no other power source, to produce any other field. "

____ Well, that is, at-least not until the mag-rotor begins to rotate (and the stator-winding has a circuit with which to conduct current through),, as THEN another (non-directly related) flux-field BECOMES established !
__ But IF your added-wording: "any other field" was actually meant even-WHEN the mag.rotor is rotating as well,
THEN it seems that you're meaning to break 'Harvey's-law' ...

If a wire is connected across an electrical power source, to flow current through the wire, it will produce a magnetic field around the wire.

After-all,, the "electrical power source" / 'stator-winding', is indeed a current-conducting "wire",, is it not ?
__ (Harvey, it seems that you must've been absent the day that 'counter-electromotive force' was taught-of in '101', [or do you contend that THAT is ALSO a "false premise" as well ?].)



" Well I think you are now accepting the fact that the generated power produced by the charging coil does change from high current, low voltage, to high voltage low current, depending on the resistance of the circuit. "

____ There's no "now" about it Harvey, as I had already learned of such & accepted it as fact in 9th-grade science-class -('101') back in the '60s ! - (I still quite-well recall seeing the resulted arc of very-HIGH voltage current passing-through over an inch of air-space, when the circuit-wires were pulled-apart after a connected LARGE coil-winding had been charged with a mere 6-volt lantern-battery ! _ The 'flywheel-effect' in obvious-ACTION !)



" Just the same as the secondary’s generated power changes from high voltage low current, across the resistance of the plug gap, to low voltage, high current across the low resistance of the rest of the secondary circuit. "

____ This is the same QUESTIONABLE-contention that you had brought-up in your earlier posting, which I've had yet to get-around to getting back to addressing.
I haven't forgotten my intention to get back to it, but I've preferred to wait until I've had a GOOD-sleep before-hand,, as it requires some deeper-thinking, since I was never trained on the particular circumstance which you had (before) raised.
Even-so however, I still have my fair doubts that an ESTABLISHED amperage/current-amount could possibly auto-convert BACK-to any other increased flow-rate, (even under that particular exceptional condition that you had proposed).
__ I'll try-to finally get to that, later today.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Finally getting-back to the following delayed topic-segment.....

But in this circuit we are using an amount of generated energy of no fixed voltage, just an amount of power, about 40 Watts that we can measure as volts X amps. This power will flow till exhausted. The resistance of the plug gap will set the voltage, which we measure at 12,000 volts with a current of 0.003 amps. Once the gap resistance is passed, there is still the same power flowing through the rest of the circuit, (less some % lost to heat and sound) but there is now a low resistance, so low voltage, say about 12 V so 30W / 12V = 2.58 Amps.
This is the same transformation of energy that takes place when the points open, and the power from the generating coil changes from low volts high amps, to low amps high voltage.

____ I find this to be of certain-interest but, it will have to be further discussed, later.

____ (This exchange was previously-posted on the previous-page.)



" But in this circuit we are using an amount of generated energy of no fixed voltage, just an amount of power, "

____ First-off, I'm quite fairly happy to discover that there's finally someone-else here other than myself who realizes that alternators (alone) don't produce any specific 'voltage', but rather just mere 'power', (until connected to a circuit) ! ...
Two or three years back, a fellow-member -(Moto Mike) who was well-trained in the electronics-field,, gave me a very hard-time seemingly opposing this fact. _ Cuz for HIM, there was no distinction between 'voltage' & 'potential'. _ His lack of such understanding was no-doubt due-to the extreme widespread MISUSE of the term 'voltage' !
__ Before an alternator's generated-POWER is allowed to bleed-through a connected-circuit, it's supposed 'voltage' aspect is ACTUALLY just mere 'tension' or 'potential-voltage' -(which is where the singular-term 'potential' sprouted from), but not ACTUAL-voltage in the TRUE-sense of the term !
____ Next concerning the main-jest of your posted-paragraph, (and just so as to help assure that it's comprehended as expected) ...
__ It seems that you mean to indicate that after the alternator's power has had it's circuit-voltage spiked-up as it enters the HT.coil's primary-winding and then-next gets 'stepped-up' by the HT.coil transformer-process so that the original low-voltage/high-current then-next becomes high-voltage/low-current, (so-as to then be able to jump the plug/spark-gap),, then-after the gap has been jumped and that HT.current-flow has then entered the mass of the grounded-engine, that then the relatively very-sparse HT.current-flow auto-reverts back-to the original low-voltage/high-current state of power (that was put-out by the alternator). _ Is that not pretty-much what you're claiming to be so ?
__ Anyhow, THAT's what I had thought you must've meant, considering your particular chosen-wording,, and first-thought that there might actually be something to it only-because the alt.power-source itself is of a raw/unrefined nature.



" The resistance of the plug gap will set the voltage, which we measure at 12,000 volts with a current of 0.003 amps. Once the gap resistance is passed, there is still the same power flowing through the rest of the circuit,
but there is now a low resistance, so low voltage, "

____ All THAT (in bold-type, [that's concerning the HT.secondary-circuit]) is of-course quite certainly TRUE ! _ The LOW-resistance of the engine-block will have next-to zer0-voltage dropped-across it !


" This is the same transformation of energy that takes place when the points open, and the power from the generating coil changes from low volts high amps, to low amps high voltage. "

____ This is the part of your claim that I have trouble with !...
__ While the 'voltage' within the REST of the HT.secondary-circuit (other than the plug-gap) does indeed drop-down to a very-low (if any) voltage-amount,, it's current-amperage however, must remain the very-SAME ! - As it can't increase back-to any higher amperage/current-rate than that which passed-through the plug-gap, (let-alone revert-back all-the-way to the original rather 'high-current' put-out by the alt.stator & fed-into the primary-coil, [as YOU've indicated]) ! _ Cuz after-all, the current/amperage within the HT.secondary-circuit is merely circuited right-back directly-to the opposite-end of the HT-secondary !
____ I'm thinking that the reason for your confusion on this matter, is likely due-to your thinking in the unconventional term of general 'energy'... As the 'energy' itself in the form of electrons, don't actually stay-put exactly according to circuit-paths through the bulk of the grounded-engine. _ In other-words, most of the actual electrons which jump-through the plug-gap actually become lost-tracked and can thus-then quite possibly end-up getting drawn-into the alt.stator (rather than B-lined directly back-to the HT.secondary) ! _ And in THAT manor, the 'ENERGY' itself could possibly be thought-of as directly-going fairly-much as you seem to have indicated. _ (However THAT reasoning is quite 'UNCONVENTIONAL' !) _ BUT it certainly doesn't travel the path directly back-to the HT.secondary in the form of 'HIGH-current/low-voltage', but certainly-RATHER in the form of the very-SAME POWER-amount,, THAT-fact quite-certainly HAS to-be TRUE ! ...
__ It's fairly 'unconventional' to consider-so but, once all the various energy-flows (of high-voltage/low-current & high-current/low-voltage) all enter-into a single large-mass of conducting-material,, it's then certainly quite-reasonable to consider all the entering energy-flows within, to become squared-off and/or averaged-out... meaning that only whilst within such a mass, your given V&A.energy-examples could possibly then auto-convert temporarily into RAW-power (with equalized Voltage & Amperage amounts, if not remain unchanged),, and-then re-auto.convert back-to whatever required V/A.amounts, as each separate required-batch of electron-energy is drawn-out of the-pool & back-into all the various respective circuit-drivers (such-as the HT.secondary & alt.stator) - (but that's just my-own [rather reasonable] theory).
I'm sure that such discussion on non-conventionalized 'energy' workings (with respect to power-flows) will only lead to making the fairly complex conception of such electrical-matters (as we're discussing), even FAR-more confusing !
__ Enough for now.
-Bob