Hot hard start

[Sooners]

Getting my Swiss Condor, with 350 Ducati tuned up and running good. But it has one issue yet...not wanting to start once ridden to fully heated stage. If I take a long ride, and stop, say for gas, by the time I try to kick start it, it won't fire. If a little hill is available, it will cost start with no problem.
Kind of reminds me of the vapor lock issue I had on my 68 Camaro, before I isolated the carb from the hot intake to fix that issue.
Any ideas???

[ducwiz]

Hi,

what about the jetting of the carb, needle and slide types, needle position etc.?
I looked into the Condor user manual (which I just uploaded here: http://i.minus.com/1368212137/35d7l4cYkQD94ISVZ3dAyQ/d1RPMrKbnk82p/betriebsanleithungCondorA350.pdf, but unfortunately no description of the carb and it's details are covered. The manual is of course written in German and French language only ;o(
The Dell'Orto 27 usually contains a white plastic bushing in the inlet port, which acts as a heat insulator; is this installed?
Do you have a constant idle speed with the hot engine? If not, I presume as a possible reason: The choke cable has no free play, so the choke piston might be slightly opened, thus giving a too rich mixture, especially for the hot engine.
Also a wrong float level may cause your symptom. You should measure a distance of 23.5 to 24.5 mm between the lowest point of the float and the contact face of the float bowl (float valve just closed). The level can be adjusted by bending the center tab of the float lever mechanism.

Hans

[JimF]

In electronics we have something in a small aerosol can called 'quick freeze.' When we are trying to find a component that goes into thermal runaway, we spray individual components with quick freeze until suddenly the circut starts working again and we've identified the culprit.

If you can't find an electronics store that sells 'quick freeze' you can go to an office supply store that sells cans of aerosol air for blowing the dust out of keyboards, and just turn that can upside down when you spray it.

Be very careful! Either one is so powerful at reducing temperature that if you spray your skin it can give you instant frostbite. Serious painful frostbite.

You might take a can of this with you - when the bike won't start you could spray either the coil which would immediately cool it down and then try a restart, or spray down your carb and try a restart or any other item that you think might be failing when hot.

I don't understand though why a rolling start is less affected by the condition.

[Sooners]

Well its raining today afterwork, so I'll test some more either tomorrow or this weekend.
Yes, I have the palstic insulator that goes between the carb and intake. I have tried different carb tunes, from rich to normal, neither seems to make a difference.
The coil on this bike is up below the seat, just hard to believe it is becoming heated/affected. One guy has mentioned that a bad or weak battery could do this. I did but a new battery from Battery Plus in the bike, as they were the only ones with something in stock, for my 6 volt needs (just got the bike a couple weeks ago). But it is a VERY small battery, so I will evaluate that...if that is a possibility...not sure how it would affect this, in this way.
The cold can test ain't a bad idea either, but man, I just don't feel the engine is running hot and sure don't feel the carb is soaking any heat of consequence...but I'll try all area's. If it is some type of vapor lock, this would tell me so.
I'll also get the Duke heated and evaulate the plug when kicking, to see if the plug is getting wet or not from gas. Try to narrow to a fuel or electrical problem.
Thanks guys...if my ankle holds up (it's getting quite sore), I'll do more tests this weekend.

[Ventodue]

To help us narrow this down a bit, can you be more precise? When you say "it won't fire", do you mean it isn't sparking? Or that it is sparking, but the fuel isn't igniting?

'Cos the first would suggest an ignition problem - as in, for example, the coil or the battery, both of which have already been proposed to you (the condensor would be another, btw). But the second would point more towards the carb - which is also on your list of possible causes . So it would be good to try and limit things down a little ...

Also:
What is your starting procedure when warm? You need to crack the throttle a little. If you're not, that could be all that is wrong ...

Ciao

Craig

[Sooners]

To help us narrow this down a bit, can you be more precise? When you say "it won't fire", do you mean it isn't sparking? Or that it is sparking, but the fuel isn't igniting?

I mean the bike won't run...there is spark at the plug. Could it be to weak of a spark?

'Cos the first would suggest an ignition problem - as in, for example, the coil or the battery, both of which have already been proposed to you (the condensor would be another, btw). But the second would point more towards the carb - which is also on your list of possible causes . So it would be good to try and limit things down a little ...

Also:
What is your starting procedure when warm? You need to crack the throttle a little. If you're not, that could be all that is wrong ...

Tried no throttle (as when cold), part throttle, full throttle and even choke for some kicks...nothing seems to indicate any attempt at starting...but it will coast start fairly easy!

Ciao

Craig

[Ventodue]

...there is spark at the plug. Could it be too weak of a spark?

Potentially, yes altho' it wouldn't be my first thought. What colour is the spark? And what plug (make and number) are you using, and what condition is it in?

Tried no throttle (as when cold), part throttle, full throttle and even choke for some kicks...nothing seems to indicate any attempt at starting...but it will coast start fairly easy!

Ok. When it won't fire on a slightly open throttle, can you take the plug out and let us know if it's wet at all.

Btw, there is no point in repeatedly kicking a Ducati - either they fire, or they don't. Which is good news for your ankle, at least ...

[Sooners]

...there is spark at the plug. Could it be too weak of a spark?

Potentially, yes altho' it wouldn't be my first thought. What colour is the spark? And what plug (make and number) are you using, and what condition is it in?

Tried no throttle (as when cold), part throttle, full throttle and even choke for some kicks...nothing seems to indicate any attempt at starting...but it will coast start fairly easy!

Ok. When it won't fire on a slightly open throttle, can you take the plug out and let us know if it's wet at all.

Btw, there is no point in repeatedly kicking a Ducati - either they fire, or they don't. Which is good news for your ankle, at least ...

Okay, gave it a good test today, took a nice long ride...let it sit a few minutes, and it she wouldn't start...perfect.

So I proceeded to do a good spark test, and the spark is a good blue spark, so I don't believe that is the issue. BTW Ventodue, the plug is a Bosch W8AC.

Next, I did lots of kicking, all throttle and choke positions...plug is dry as a bone. Obvioulsy not getting any wet fuel to it. Loosened the float bowl bolt, just to confirm the bowl is full of gas.
I'll recheck the float level tomorrow, but not sure that is the issue, with it starting sweet as could be when cold, and as I've said, when hot I can coast start it.

And thanks for the kicking info on Ducati's...my poor ankle thanks you.

[Ventodue]

So I proceeded to do a good spark test, and the spark is a good blue spark, so I don't believe that is the issue. BTW Ventodue, the plug is a Bosch W8AC.

Well, that's encouraging! Nevertheless, before putting a possible ignition system fault 'on the back burner', do make sure that all your connections are good and clean - plug cap, plug wire (both ends), low tension side to the coil, ground etc. That's the right grade plug, btw - NGK B6HS is an alternative.

Next, I did lots of kicking, all throttle and choke positions...plug is dry as a bone. Obvioulsy not getting any wet fuel to it.

Ok. What idle jet, air slide, atomiser and needle do you have fitted? And I assume you're running a VHB 27?

[Crazygreg]

if you guys need anything translated (not the full manual hopefully) from french to english, i can do that !
By the way, could you post detailed picture of the oil filter mount and oil cover? i would like to adapt one on my mark3

Greg