250 cam availability

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Snakeoil
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Upstate NY

250 cam availability

Postby Snakeoil » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:49 pm

As I peruse the various Bevel Single vendors on the web, I have noticed that none of them seem to offer camshafts. I would think that cams would be right up there with pistons and such as restoration parts.

So what's the story? Are Ducati 250 cams unobtanium? Do you just regrind old worn out cams?

I have two cams. One is severely worn with ears sticking up from one lobe and a single ear on the other. The "good" cam definitely has some wear on it. Probably okay for street use, but certainly not perfect.

Here are the two cams.

This is the cam in decent shape.
Image

This is the not-so-decent cam.
Image

It would appear that the exhaust lobe seems to be exposed to a bit more punishment than the intake based solely on these two cams.

Thanks,
Rob

velofellow
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:46 pm

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby velofellow » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:02 am

Hi Mate,
Have you tried Lacey Ducati in the UK. Follow this ling for camshafts. http://www.laceyducati.com/ducati-parts ... 45_62.html

Snakeoil
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Snakeoil » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:21 am

Thanks. I suspect I was looking for cams as a top level category. Need to drill down further. I know better. Dumb mistake. Homer Simpson moment.
Regards
Rob

Bevel bob
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Bevel bob » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:04 am

I have run a hotted up Mach1/Mark3 for many years. I doubt you will take my advice,but here it is. find out why your cam is damaged . Find out what the better of the two is and what is was designed to do. If it is a sports cam,Red or grey etc,get it re furbished or get another similar one. It will give a lively performance on the road with a performance envelope that is useable. If you just want to have boasting rights and a mostly static toy then fit a race cam, a megaphone, a high comp piston and get the head hogged out,its what most do. Thats why I never find other Dukes on the road. I have been looking out for a grey cam ,a smaller carb and a standard head for my bike ,I would like it to PERFORM like the standard Mach 1 that I rode back in 1966.

Snakeoil
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Snakeoil » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:13 pm

Now Bob, why wouldn't I take your advice? Not that I plunge in head first if someone tells me to do something. But I tend to take all advice "under advisement" and continue to do research and learn, which should eventually prove some advice to be valuable and other to be not so valuable.

Actually, you and I tend to think along the same lines. I want a very streetable machine as it will never see the race track except for maybe a spirited parade lap now and then.

The ugly cam is from an engine that was found in the dump. My guess, after pulling this engine apart as far as I needed to go before I realized it was an anchor, is that it ended up in the dump because somebody else realized this long ago. Probaby a bike that never saw any maintenance, was run low on oil and flogged continuously. Somebody had taken it apart and then put it back together from what I found inside.

The other cam, which is actually pretty good, was sitting on the shelf in my friend's trailer of parts. No telling what its life was before it arrived on his shelf. For years he bought Ducati single parts when they were dirt cheap at swap meets. History rarely comes with used parts at meets.

That all said, today was play with the cams day. I downloaded Jim Panetta's cam info from the Ducatimecchanica site. There is no vestige of paint markings on either of my cams, so measuring them was required to determine their grind and application.

Here's the set-up I used. Degree wheel was simply a printout from my computer and glued to a piece of cardboard. I prefer these over a metal wheel because I can write on them with a pencil and just print out another if the current one is too fugly to use any longer.
Image

The degree pointer is a piece of safety wire on that round magnet stuck to the carriage. Cam is mounted on centers. Lathe spindle stays stationary.

Both my cams are Monza cams. The good cam measures max lift in line with what is in Jim's cam info. 20/70 intake, 50/30 exhaust. Jim measured max lift on both lobes between 7.8mm and 7.6mm for five violet (250 Monza) cams. My good cam measured 7.79 intake and 7.63 exhaust. My base circle was a bit larger at 25.05mm on the intake and in the middle of his measurements at 24.69mm exhaust. Jim's measurements ranged from 24.35mm to 24.9mm.

I measured the timing two ways. First I assumed that the opening point was perfect and set my degree wheel there. I then went around until I hit the closing spot. The other way was to determine the number of degrees for the max lift on a perfect cam. I then set the degree wheel for that point at max lift and went back and read the open and close points. In both cases I was within a degree of perfect. Tolerance per the manual is +/- 5 deg.

My bad cam was actually not that bad from a measurement POV. The max lift was down from spec at 7.24mm intake and 7.33mm exhaust. And there is a nasty dip in the opening ramp on the intake. But if it were my only cam, it would be worthwhile to either have it reground or repaired unless it turned out to cost more than a new cam, if you can find a new stock cam. I need to go back and look at the vendors again.

I'm going to pay special attention to the rocker shimming at assembly time. Need to assure the rocker is centered on the cam lobes. Although it might be dynamics while running that pushes the rocker against the spring and misaligns it.

That's it for cams. Looks like I have a good cam for the engine build.

regards,
Rob

Bevel bob
Posts: 1056
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Bevel bob » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:57 pm

The Monza cam may be a bit too tame I think, A grey,red or the milder of the Greenwhites would work, with current fuel I would go for a (measured ) CR somewhere around 9 to 1. If you can incorporate a squish band that will make a difference, Twin plugging won't make much difference to power but would run with less ignition advance and give the big end an easier time. A 36 or 40 inlet will be plenty,a bigger exhaust valve won't do much. Keep the inlet guide boss for reliability if possible.The standard spring set up will run to 9k so coil spring conversions are a waste on a road bike.Followers will be shot.

Snakeoil
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Snakeoil » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:30 pm

I see you are in the UK, Bob. So I wonder how your pump gas compares to ours. I can buy 91 non-ethanol here, which is what I run in all my vintage and modern machines. Only my van gets the dreaded E10 regular.

I know your octane ratings are different than ours. I belive you use RON and we use AKI which is (MON + RON)/2. So our 91 is equal to your 95.

But I wonder about other additives and mixes that might make your gas better than ours.

Looking at pistons, I'm finding the selection to be limited. Seems most are high compression, which I assume to be 10:1. I could machine the dome of the piston to bring it down to 9:1. But never having adventured into this realm, I'd need to do some studying and probably spring for a graduated cylinder to cc the head. I have a Borgo stock 74mm piston which I understand to be an 8:1 piston. So I could fudge a bit and extrapolate how much would have to come off the 10:1 to make it a 9:1. This of course assumes there is sufficient meat in the dome of the piston.

I keep starting these separate threads and end up talking about stuff that should be in the resto thread so everything is there for the next guy. I have to stop starting new threads.

regards,
Rob

Eldert
Posts: 772
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Hazerswoude Rijndijk Netherlands

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Eldert » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:27 pm

Rob

the 10 to 1 piston if you measure the combustionchamber volume with oil and do the calculations you get a tad over 9 to 1 . before you start milling the piston crown measuse first .

Eldert .

Snakeoil
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: 250 cam availability

Postby Snakeoil » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:40 pm

Measure first?? Gee, doesn't that take all the fun out of it?

Yup, I'm a fanatic on measuring stuff, mutiple times. Sometimes, just for fun. A collegue back in my working days used to mentor new engineers coming into the company. He would drive home the point that data and measurements are everything. He went so far as to have shirts made for them when he passed them on to their managers. On the sleeve it said, "To measure is to know".

I appreciate the insight and heads up.

Thanks,
Rob


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