battery problems

[john jupiter]

This bike stalled out on a sunday ride so i guess im finding a few new things as i get her running again.
After testing again this evening i realized that the bike's ignition seems to have s huge draw on the battery. So much so that it will not stay running for more than a minute or so until stalling out. I checked the voltage and its down to about 3.2 while running and then stalls out any lower. I dont recall it doing this this morning. I had 5.86 while running. Hmmmm

After the battery comes back to life i tried it again and this time i put on the headlight which starts out at normal brightness. Voltage was drained so fast that i can see the headlight getting dimmer to the point of barley glowing after 45 seconds or so.. I hope i didnt kill yet another battery...
Any thoughts?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" When touching the red wire lead coming out of the engine with the red probe i get a reading of 5.86 volts. "

____ I assume that's 5.86 'DC' volts to 'ground' , with engine running at idle and lights off ?
If that test-reading was done with everything left connected as stock, then you were basically measuring the battery & system voltage-level. _ But if it was done with the alt.cable's red wire-lead disconnected (except to the DC.volt-meter), then we have good news that your charging-system is functioning.


" When touching the red to either yellow wire i get about 10volts at idle and thst increases to about 19volts if i increase the rpm by about 1000! "

____ That seems as expected, except that your having bothered to mention that you were probing with the "red", leads me to think that you still had your meter set to DC, where-as it should be set to 'AC', for testing there.
I would've assumed that you would've left your red test-probe connected to the red alt.wire-lead and use your black test-probe to check the two yellow alt.wire-leads, (although for AC-testing, which is black & which is red doesn't much matter !). _ If your alt.test was checked this way, then all seems well with that test-outcome. _ (Cuz black-probe to ground would not have given us anything, [as might have been expected since you bothered to mention "red" for this 'AC' test].)


" Bike still goes dead as soon as the battery is disconnected so i could not calculate test 2 "

____ Since your Duke-engine's ignition still dies-out when you disconnect the battery, even though (it seems !?) your charging-system is putting-out, this would indicate that your alternator's rotor is not properly set with correct 'timing' for running the ignition. _ Do you know if anyone has ever pulled-off the alt-rotor ?


" Of 450 owners manual:
It is not at all possible to run the engine without battery as there would be no excitation to the rectifier. "

____ It's a shame that they used an English-speaking Italian to translate to English, rather than an Italian-speaking American.
__ It's certainly true that the engine can-not be STARTED without the battery connected, as then, not only would there be no power from the battery to run the ignition, but also without the R/R.unit being able to be turned-on/excited by the battery, as well,, the charging-system then also can't power the ignition, either !
However, if the engine is started first, then the battery taken off-line,, then the engine can still run without the battery, as the charging-system will power the ignition as well as keep it's own R/R.unit supplied with sufficient turn-on juice, (so long as the revs don't drop too low). _ But that's not something that ought to be allowed for long, as the unit's internals are not meant to handle all the weight of the load-system without help from the battery, and will burn-out, especially with the lights left on for long !


" When the engine is running, the battery cables must absolutly not be detachedas the electronic rectifier would inevitably be damaged. "

____ I've had an experience (about twice), where one of the battery-cables broke-loose from it's terminal while out for an extended ride...
The first time I rode a number of miles after I had noticed that the lights seemed brighter than usual, and when I got nearer to home (slower speeds), I noticed them flickering. _ So when I made it home, I shut-down and looked things over (in the dark) but didn't see the disconnected bat.cable, and found I could not get my Duke started back up. _ So waited to the next day, and then found the disconnected bat.cable,, fixed the issue and found that that was all there was to it. - My R/R.unit was able to take the brief abuse and go back to normal-working.
But others were not so fortunate as I, as others who had same/similar happen to them, needed to replace their burned-out units. _ Perhaps they had ran for longer periods than I had gone for.

____ Anyhow, the best way to confirm that the battery is receiving any charging-juice, is to hook-up an ammeter (in series with the battery). _ Or the second-best, is to leave everything connected as stock, and connect a DC.volt-meter across the battery-terminals and note slight voltage increases as the eng.revs increase. - No increase at all indicates a defunct charging-circuit.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: john jupiter...
" After testing again this evening i realized that the bike's ignition seems to have s huge draw on the battery. So much so that it will not stay running for more than a minute or so until stalling out. I checked the voltage and its down to about 3.2 while running and then stalls out any lower. "

____ It seems that you have developed a near short-circuit somewhere after the ignition-switch. _ This is now a more important concern, if not the root-cause of your original issue. _ Any circuit drawing-down such a sizable 6v.battery that fast, has got to heat-up the wire that leads to the short well enough to detect fairly easily. _ And I'd say you're pretty-close to melting your wire-harness, so you should trace-down & locate the cause of the short ASAP.
I'd suggest that you remove the points-cover and rotate the engine until the points are wide-open, then turn-on the ign.switch and see if the high current-drain remains.
I once encountered a similar short, and found that a replaced wire-terminal at the end of the points/coil-wire was making contact with the inside-surface of the points inspection-cover.


" After the battery comes back to life i tried it again and this time i put on the headlight which starts out at normal brightness. Voltage was drained so fast that i can see the headlight getting dimmer to the point of barley glowing after 45 seconds or so.. "

____ Well such quick discharging can be expected of a battery which has simply self-recovered, as it's store of power is thus barely enough to hold-up it's expected voltage after having been so discharged as you had noted previous.
However, if you had recharged it overnight (at a proper rate), and brought it back up to near normal capacity, then it's most likely that it's getting fast-drained by a short in your wiring somewhere where there's no fuse to blow the line.
Otherwise, the less likely answer to the quick-draining issue, is a faulty battery.
__ Since I gather no fuses are blowing, it's most likely that either the white-wire to the ign.coil, or the brown-wire to the R/R.unit is getting shorted to something that's near-towards Ground-level potential, (cuz if it was a DIRECT short to full-Ground, then your wire-harness would've gone up in smoke).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

I have a feeling the charing system could have been changed due to the length of wires coming out of the engine being slightly too long and looped around the frame under the seat one time. I cant be sure though.. I can tell you that the cases have been split in the past so cant really rule anything out on that front. However the system did appear to be working earlier this summer.

I didnt not mean to indicate anything by mentioning the red probe for ac. I have a meter that automatically adjusts for ac or dc.

I went into the garage, opened the points and rotated the engine until the points were as open as possible. I turned the igniton on and could not find any hot wires including inspection of the wires on the coil under the tank.

I can report that the battery started out a 5.86volts before turning on the ignition as tested by touching the black probe to the battery ground and the red probe to the red wire coming out of the engine case (while connected to the r/r box)
Just turning on the ignition with no lights on and horn disconnected seems to indicate a slow draw on the battery.. We are talking s pace of 5.86... 5.85 ... 5.83 over 20 or 30 seconds but it does continue to draw and weaken continuously.
When turning on the headlight my volts immediatly drops to 4volts and will continue to drop.

When the bike is running The same readings apply and however the drop in voltage continues to very small while just idleing but but drops down to 2.4 volts while running with the lights on before stalling out. NOTE: voltage reading was taken from the battery ground and the red wire coming out of the engine case while connected to the r/r box.. If tested using a reading of the red wire and either of the yellows i do get an increase of about 10 every 1000rpm.

I now have my battery on a charger. My thoughts are that my regulator is not calling for a charge to take place. What do you think Bob?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I have a feeling the charing system could have been changed due to the length of wires coming out of the engine being slightly too long and looped around the frame under the seat one time. "

____ I think that's about regular/normal length.


" I can tell you that the cases have been split in the past so cant really rule anything out on that front. "

____ Then it's likely that the alt.rotor was not properly 'timed' to the crankshaft when reinstalled.


" However the system did appear to be working earlier this summer. "

____ You probably mean with the battery connected, right ? _ Cuz otherwise if it ran back then with the battery disconnected, then at least back THEN the alt.rotor must have still had it's proper location/timing set as expected.
Have you noticed any noise at all coming from the motor after you've stopped the engine ? _ Cuz it's possible for the alt.rotor to have broken-loose and continue spinning-down after the crankshaft has finished spinning-down to a stop.


" I didnt not mean to indicate anything by mentioning the red probe for ac. I have a meter that automatically adjusts for ac or dc. "

____ Oh, I now get the reason for the wording you had written.
I've never used such an automatic volt-meter, I wonder if they can be completely trusted ? _ I've used some other digital-type meters and have found them to be faulty compared to the old-standard needle-pointer meters.
__ That you were not confirming where your black-probe was placed, as well as making the point of where your red-probe was placed, (for what should've been a particular AC-test), thus having allowed me to possibly assume that you were still performing a DC-check rather than AC, (with your black-probe possibly still on Ground instead of relocated to the opposite alt.wire-leads).


" opened the points and rotated the engine until the points were as open as possible. I turned the igniton on and could not find any hot wires including inspection of the wires on the coil under the tank. "

____ Well that's good (so far), so long as your battery was fully charged-up, (cuz a battery that's low on charge will not provide enough juice to heat-up a wire leading to a short-circuit).
__ Next, you need to recheck the same test again, but with the points left closed.


" I can report that the battery started out a 5.86volts before turning on the ignition as tested by touching the black probe to the battery ground and the red probe to the red wire coming out of the engine case (while connected to the r/r box) "

____ That's fine for checking the battery's voltage, since that point where you placed your red-probe is only directly connected to the battery's pos.post, (as the red alt.wire is normally directly connected at the same jumper-point on the box-terminal).
__ That your battery reads-out at only "5.86" volts is of a concern though, cuz a fully-charged battery should have 6.3 to 7.2 volts. _ Perhaps your v.meter's reading-tolerance is off-set a fair bit ?
Try your v.meter directly on the battery, with at least one of it's terminal-posts completely disconnected (from all wires), and see what reading you then get.


" Just turning on the ignition with no lights on and horn disconnected seems to indicate a slow draw on the battery..
it does continue to draw and weaken continuously. "

____ That's normal if the points are closed, otherwise with them left open, the brown-wire to the R/R.unit may draw a very slight amount (but really shouldn't be too noticeable with such a large charged battery), and same goes for the current-draw by the 'Gen' -(power-On) indicator-light, (in the headlight).
That draw-test ought to be performed (both ways) with the points open AND also with them closed.


" When turning on the headlight my volts immediatly drops to 4volts and will continue to drop. "

____ That's normal but, I wouldn't expect such a large battery to allow it's voltage to drop-off downward so far, (if in a fully charged state). _ If the battery is in good full-charged state, I'd then expect it's voltage to drop-down little more than 1-volt, (unless running a stronger headlight-bulb than stock).


" but drops down to 2.4 volts while running with the lights on before stalling out. "

____ This excessive drop-off in voltage should not be occurring (with a fully-charged battery) !
This circumstance leads me to think that possibly the (red)- wire connecting from the box-terminal to the battery's pos.post is not passing sufficient current-flow, possibly due to broken wire-strands within it, or bad end-connections. _ And if so, the resulted near-open is dropping the missing voltage. _ The same possible deficiencies could also exist with the battery's ground-wire & connections.
(Those two battery-cables ought to be at least 14-gauge,, as wires, [and also their connections], that are too slim, will act like resistors when trying to pass high-current !)
You can check for such deficient possibility by instead placing your two probes, (one at a time), directly-on the battery's terminal-post, (rather than at the box-terminal, or the frame-ground).


" I now have my battery on a charger. "

____ If your v.meter is accurate and the battery is good, then after full charging, check that your (disconnected) 6v.battery reads at least 6.4-volts, before your further system-testing.


" My thoughts are that my regulator is not calling for a charge to take place. "

____ Could possibly be but, to check for such occurrence, you need to have the engine running at least 4000-RPM.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[john jupiter]

--Battery now charged and showing 6.3 volts.. The headlight no longer draws down the battery immediatly and the bike no longer stalls after idling for a a minute or two. The charging of the battery seems to have taken these two problems out of the equasion.

Testing results-- as suggested by Bob.

____ For checking for DC-output from the charging-system, the test-meter's (V.DC) red-probe should be connected to the red wire-lead of the alt.cable (that's from out-of the motor-case). _ So to perform the test which you wanted to try, your red-probe should be secured to the dual red jumper-terminal on the box, then (with all else just as stock), start the engine and note the DC.voltage-reading (provided by the battery),, and then disconnect the battery, so that you can then note any voltage provided by just the charging-system alone. _ (This test should not be run for very long, and done with lights left off !)

--For this test with engine running at idle, all lights off. Red probe on the red wire lead coming out of the engine case and connected to the r/r terminal.
6.24 volts with positive lead directly from battery connected into the r\r terminal
5.41 volts when the battery lead was disconnected from the r/r terminal.
To me this result means there is output coming out of the alternator. Hoping it is withing the range of acceptability though.

Static regulator test with the help of the repair manual: performed with engine off, battery lead connected to r/r.
The main thing that im unclear on is that the manual suggests testing with an ohm meter or a circuit tester lamp. I do not have a circuit tester lamp. and do not know if a small reading like .4 would light the lamp or not.
The book states to insert ohm meter with between yellow lead and red lead coming from alternator, take a reading, then reverse the probes on the same two wires.
When i do this i get readings of .4 for both probe combinations. When testing yellow2 with red i get the exact same thing. It appears i have a problem since its my understanding that the the diodes should limit the flow to only one direction.. So i should have gotten .4 and then zero when reversing the probes. Im unclear if this is a short circuit or a burned out diode because i dont have a light.

Also of note. The manual refers to other testing for the regulator and mentions green and grey take off points.. I do not have any of these in my r/r. I have 2 yellows, one red from alt, one red from battery, and one brown.. Das ittt.. Wondering if its describing a different, earlier n/c charging system or if i have a non stock unit... Hmm

Side note- I did find one end of a blue wire with black stripe near my horn not connected to anything.. Same color wire running up and also disconnected located out of the loom by the headlight.. I also have no wiring to the green warning light on the right side of the headlight hooked up.. And... My red warning light seems to indicate when my highbeam is on not the charging system warning as im under the impression it should be.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote="john jupiter"]--Battery now charged and showing 6.3 volts.. The headlight no longer draws down the battery immediatly and the bike no longer stalls after idling for a a minute or two. The charging of the battery seems to have taken these two problems out of the equasion.

____ Alright then, back when your v.meter had indicated only 5.86v, it was then no-doubt not inaccurate (as suspected), since you were then not measuring a CHARGED battery (as would've been naturally assumed, before wondering what could be wrong).
The "6.3 volts" indicates a charged battery (but probably not fully charged),, and letting the engine idle long enough will eventually let the battery discharge back down again, since the stock charging-system does not produce enough charging-power to break-even at such low RPM !
With the battery discharged like it was, the ignition was consuming more than the battery was getting charged, so that's why the engine would die after just a couple of minutes of mere idling.


" --For this test with engine running at idle, all lights off. Red probe on the red wire lead coming out of the engine case and connected to the r/r terminal.
6.24 volts with positive lead directly from battery connected into the r\r terminal "

____ This test-result shows only the battery's voltage as it runs the ignition-system, since the charging-system is not then supplying high enough voltage to effect the voltage-reading, (although still helping to keep the battery from discharging as fast).


" 5.41 volts when the battery lead was disconnected from the r/r terminal. "
To me this result means there is output coming out of the alternator. "

____ Indeed, this is a very good outcome, as it indicates a number of good things besides ! ...
The "5.41 volts" must be what your charging-system is providing at idle, (although then insufficient to charge a 6.3v battery).
__ Since this time your engine didn't stall & die (with the battery becoming disconnected from the running circuit), this now means that the R/R.unit was now/this-time sufficiently excited & turned-on so as to allow the alternator's rectified/DC-power to now be able to run the ignition !
This of-course means that both your alternator and your R/R.unit are in working-order. _ And also on top of that good revelation, since your engine continued running (without help from a battery), that thus means that your alt.rotor must be fairly well timed to the crankshaft !


" Hoping it is withing the range of acceptability though. "

____ I'd guess that it probably is but, there's still a chance that the second/non-primary diode within your R/R.unit has possibly burned-open.
__ Were you always running with lights left turned-on most of your riding-time ? _ And if so, what RPM.speed-range do you do most of your riding ?
(As I'm suspecting that riding for too long at low revs with lights left on, may be what had brought-on your low-charge battery condition/state.)


" Static regulator test with the help of the repair manual: performed with engine off, battery lead connected to r/r.
The main thing that im unclear on is that the manual suggests testing with an ohm meter or a circuit tester lamp. I do not have a circuit tester lamp. and do not know if a small reading like .4 would light the lamp or not. "

____ This seems as if you may be confusing two different types of tests...
The test with the tester-lamp would require keeping the battery in circuit, however the ohm-meter type test should be done with the battery disconnected !


" The book states to insert ohm meter with between yellow lead and red lead coming from alternator, take a reading, then reverse the probes on the same two wires. "

____ This does not make sense, since those connections could only indicate the circuit-state of the alternator-windings, (which would be same either way !).
This suggested (flip/flop)- test should be of the rectifier (rather than the alternator-wires).


" When i do this i get readings of .4 for both probe combinations. When testing yellow2 with red i get the exact same thing. "

____ Of course, as the alternator & it's 3 wire-leads include no diodes !
However this ohm-meter testing did happen to indicate that both of your alt.windings are okay.


" It appears i have a problem since its my understanding that the the diodes should limit the flow to only one direction.. "

____ That's quite true, and the problem is that you're supposed to do the flip-flop type ohm-meter testing on the RECTIFIER-box, without the alt.wire-leads still hooked-up.


" So i should have gotten .4 and then zero when reversing the probes. "

____ NO, not really... You got the readings you should've gotten, with the alt.wire-leads still remaining involved.
For such testing of the rectifier's diodes (without the other interfering circuits), your ohm-meter ought read near zero with it's probes connected one way, and over 100,000-ohms with the probes reversed !


" Im unclear if this is a short circuit or a burned out diode because i dont have a light. "

____ With the alternator's windings left providing a short-circuit (as you had it), your test was then unable to determine anything about the state of your rectifier's diodes !


" The manual refers to other testing for the regulator and mentions green and grey take off points.. "

____ That suggested testing is for the older/n-c type charging-system, and most anything stated within that section of your manual is not of pertinence to your w-c type system.


" I do not have any of these in my r/r. I have 2 yellows, one red from alt, one red from battery, and one brown..
Wondering if its describing a different, earlier n/c charging system or if i have a non stock unit... "

____ You no-doubt have the stock w-c R/R.unit, as no other rectifier has such a combination of colored terminal-posts !


" Side note- I did find one end of a blue wire with black stripe near my horn not connected to anything.. Same color wire running up and also disconnected located out of the loom by the headlight.. "

____ That's the color of wire that's supposed to carry fused B+ (pos.battery-juice) to the horn & brake-light switch,, however the wire you've found unconnected, may have been that which was purposely left extra, intended for optional turn-signal lamps.


" I also have no wiring to the green warning light on the right side of the headlight hooked up.. "

____ I'm certain that that's because your USA-version Duke-model (somewhat unfortunately) came with a (limited function) 'sealed-beam',, as the Italian-version had a different type headlight with a parking-lamp included, which was also expected to shed light to make that green-lens glow a bit. - (A cheap setup that was no big-loss to get-by without, thus nothing was done to further alter the USA-version in that regard).


" My red warning light seems to indicate when my highbeam is on not the charging system warning as im under the impression it should be. "

____ Actually, that is as stock, just as it was meant to be ! ...
There was never any such charging-system related warning-indicator employed for the WideCase-models !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

" Hoping it is withing the range of acceptability though. "

____ I'd guess that it probably is but, there's still a chance that the second/non-primary diode within your R/R.unit has possibly burned-open.
__ Were you always running with lights left turned-on most of your riding-time ? _ And if so, what RPM.speed-range do you do most of your riding ?
(As I'm suspecting that riding for too long at low revs with lights left on, may be what had brought-on your low-charge battery condition/state.)

**** I would say i was running with the lights on at least 50% of the time, In regard to typical rpm, i would guess around 3000-3500 rpm, but there was a lot of shifting and higher reving during the rides. No straight cruising which im guessing would be the best for the battery.

**** How would i check that second diode to make sure its functioning properly?

" Static regulator test with the help of the repair manual: performed with engine off, battery lead connected to r/r.
The main thing that im unclear on is that the manual suggests testing with an ohm meter or a circuit tester lamp. I do not have a circuit tester lamp. and do not know if a small reading like .4 would light the lamp or not. "

____ This seems as if you may be confusing two different types of tests...
The test with the tester-lamp would require keeping the battery in circuit, however the ohm-meter type test should be done with the battery disconnected !

" The book states to insert ohm meter with between yellow lead and red lead coming from alternator, take a reading, then reverse the probes on the same two wires. "

____ This does not make sense, since those connections could only indicate the circuit-state of the alternator-windings, (which would be same either way !).
This suggested (flip/flop)- test should be of the rectifier (rather than the alternator-wires).

" It appears i have a problem since its my understanding that the the diodes should limit the flow to only one direction.. "

____ That's quite true, and the problem is that you're supposed to do the flip-flop type ohm-meter testing on the RECTIFIER-box, without the alt.wire-leads still hooked-up.

***** Im not sure what your mean by this, are you saying to do the flip flop ohm test between the red wire out of the alternator and the red lead off of the positive battery tereminal hooked into the r/r.. After disconnecting the two yellows?

" So i should have gotten .4 and then zero when reversing the probes. "

____ NO, not really... You got the readings you should've gotten, with the alt.wire-leads still remaining involved.
For such testing of the rectifier's diodes (without the other interfering circuits), your ohm-meter ought read near zero with it's probes connected one way, and over 100,000-ohms with the probes reversed !

***** zero and so high the reading was out of range for my testor was exacty the readings i got, except the engine had to be running to get this..

" Im unclear if this is a short circuit or a burned out diode because i dont have a light. "

____ With the alternator's windings left providing a short-circuit (as you had it), your test was then unable to determine anything about the state of your rectifier's diodes !

****lets test those diodes!

The manual refers to other testing for the regulator and mentions green and grey take off points.. "

____ That suggested testing is for the older/n-c type charging-system, and most anything stated within that section of your manual is not of pertinence to your w-c type system.

" I do not have any of these in my r/r. I have 2 yellows, one red from alt, one red from battery, and one brown..
Wondering if its describing a different, earlier n/c charging system or if i have a non stock unit... "

____ You no-doubt have the stock w-c R/R.unit, as no other rectifier has such a combination of colored terminal-posts !

Thank you for clarifying! The repair manual was sending me on a wild duck chase....
Sounds like its indeed a shame i have the USA model.
Comes to think of it my horn and brake light are both not working, they used to until a few rides ago... Note , my brake light is only designed to function off of the rear brake.

Thanks!

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" **** I would say i was running with the lights on at least 50% of the time, In regard to typical rpm, i would guess around 3000-3500 rpm, but there was a lot of shifting and higher reving during the rides. "

____ Seems like regular/normal riding-conditions, which really shouldn't allow the battery to run-down too low. _ But if ya run under 3500-RPM too long with lights on, ya can then expect about same occurrence as you've ran-into.


" No straight cruising which im guessing would be the best for the battery. "

___ Doesn't really matter too much, as the only thing that's really not good for the battery is running TOO-long at EITHER low-revs or high-revs. - However steady-CRUISING at any constant RPM between 3500 & 5500 would/ought suit the battery just fine.


" **** How would i check that second diode to make sure its functioning properly? "

____ Both rectifying-semiconductor/diodes within the stock R/R.unit/box are actually equals, but that which determines which one is the primary and which is thus-then considered as the secondary, depends on which is fed AC from the particular alt.winding that happens to supply a pulse of DC that's in the required phase which is needed to run the ign.spark. _ In other-words, of the two yellow alt.wire-leads, only ONE will provide power-juice that's 'in time' with the ignition-system's demand for DC-power, while the other can't,, so of the two rectifier-circuits within the R/R.unit, the one which happens to be connected-up so that it can't power-up the ign.coil, then happens to be the one that's considered as the secondary DC-power output.
__ To run the same test on it as you've already done for the one we've learned is working, you could simply swap the two yellow alt.wire-leads around from the way they've been connected to their two associated yellow-terminals on the R/R.unit. _ That way, the opposite rectifier-circuit will then be tested just as the one you've already proven must be good. _ So thus if the engine will then continue to run (without battery) again still, THEN both rectifier-circuits must be okay.

____ That's quite true, and the problem is that you're supposed to do the flip-flop type ohm-meter testing on the RECTIFIER-box, without the alt.wire-leads still hooked-up.

" ***** Im not sure what your mean by this, are you saying to do the flip flop ohm test between the red wire out of the alternator and the red lead off of the positive battery tereminal hooked into the r/r.. After disconnecting the two yellows? "

____ Well no, cuz while the pair of red terminals on the terminal-block (of the R/R.unit), are obviously 'physically' connected, they're not also 'electrically' connected to anything within the box/unit !
__ The R/R.unit's metal-box passes both of it's negative-outputs though to Ground (where it bolts to the frame). _ So, (with the two yellow alt.wire-leads disconnected), your ohm-meter probe-leads should be connected to the two associated/(yellow) terminals (one at a time), and the metal-casing,, of the R/R.unit/box.

For such testing of the rectifier's diodes
your ohm-meter ought read near zero with it's probes connected one way, and over 100,000-ohms with the probes reversed !

" ***** zero and so high the reading was out of range for my testor was exacty the readings i got, except the engine had to be running to get this.. "

____ It doesn't make sense that the engine HAD to be running but, it would make sense that the key-switch had to be turned-on, (so that the R/R.unit would also become turned-on).


" ****lets test those diodes! "

____ Then you could try the flip/flop ohm-meter test on both of the two yellow-terminals & Ground, (of the box),, and if you get over 100k-ohms either flip-flopped way, then try it again with the R/R.unit's brown-terminal powered-up (by about 5-DC.volts).


" Comes to think of it my horn and brake light are both not working, "

____ Have you checked the associated fuse ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

" How would i check that second diode to make sure its functioning properly? "

____ Both rectifying-semiconductor/diodes within the stock R/R.unit/box are actually equals, but that which determines which one is the primary and which is thus-then considered as the secondary, depends on which is fed AC from the particular alt.winding that happens to supply a pulse of DC that's in the required phase which is needed to run the ign.spark. _ In other-words, of the two yellow alt.wire-leads, only ONE will provide power-juice that's 'in time' with the ignition-system's demand for DC-power, while the other can't,, so of the two rectifier-circuits within the R/R.unit, the one which happens to be connected-up so that it can't power-up the ign.coil, then happens to be the one that's considered as the secondary DC-power output.
__ To run the same test on it as you've already done for the one we've learned is working, you could simply swap the two yellow alt.wire-leads around from the way they've been connected to their two associated yellow-terminals on the R/R.unit. _ That way, the opposite rectifier-circuit will then be tested just as the one you've already proven must be good. _ So thus if the engine will then continue to run (without battery) again still, THEN both rectifier-circuits must be okay."

**** thanks, i just went into the garage and ran this test. Let me start by saying that i put the battery on the charger again overnight. I recieved a reading of 6.18v while the engine was running when putting the meter between the battery ground and the red alternator lead.. [all wires connected]
When i disconnect the battery lead from the r/r my reading actually increased to 6.75-7v at idle.
When i swap the yellow wires i recieve the exact same readings. Diodes seem okay, and 6.75-7v at idle does seem like enough power to charge my battery!
BY THE WAY--- when i first started this testing and stated that the engine will not run with the battery disconnected, i was actually disconnecting the negstive lead from the battery.. Not disconnecting the positive lead from the r/r.

Now to perform the ohm flip flop test as you recommend. And to do so i need to remove the yellow leads from the r/r terminals, and probe the terminals where the yellows were connected white using a jumper from the metal of the box and my probe? Is this done while ignition is turned on or off?
Hopefully when im all done, turn on my headlight and see it get brighter when the engine speed is increased.. It hasnt been doing so..

In regard to the brske light and horn.. The fuse is good, when pressing the button to honk the horn you can hear a very faint tone.. This tone always sounded this way until engine was on and then the tone would get loud enough.. These days it never gets above the barley audible phase..