DC Voltage Drops While Running

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themoudie
Posts: 741
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Location: Scotland

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby themoudie » Tue May 28, 2024 2:51 pm

Aye blaat,

Heat reduces magnetic effect! ;)

Just enter "increased heat reduces magnetism?" into your search engine and read away! ;) This link clarifies the effects of heat on magnets clearly: How-does-temperature-affect-magnets?

So, maybe your stator is fine and your rotor requires re-magnetising, or the stator requires re-winding, as well! :(

I would re-magnetise your rotor to start with and see what happens.

Good health, Bill

Jordan
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby Jordan » Wed May 29, 2024 4:16 am

blaat! wrote:Anyone have any logical explanation for the increased resistance/lower output from the stator when it heats up?


Try re-melting the soldered joints on the stator wiring.
They could be making poor contact, that is a high resistance joint.
That in turn creates more heat, making a vicious cycle

blaat!
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby blaat! » Wed May 29, 2024 11:30 am

Good ideas Bill and Jordan. I wish the stator wasn't so hard to get to :x

There is a place in CA that re-magnetizes moped flywheels and possibly others. I may send photos and inquire, but first need to do a little more testing. I took it for a long ride yesterday (the fun part about all this!) but I think it was too cool outside to get the engine temperature hot enough. The issue didn't happen as pronounced as other times.

Does anyone understand exactly the difference between the stator ground lug being soldered to ground or not?

I undid the ground on this and I'm not convinced it is optimal. I believe all three coil wires of most modern 3 phase stators are grounded at the stator. That would be similar to the OEM Ducati singles setup, but Ducati singles just have two wires instead of three.
Alternator.jpg

I also notice each pole is double wound (both circuits wound on each pole) and there are two types of pole windings.

When I get in there I'm tempted to solder on a third wire to the two wires that used to be grounded and run it to a switch and then to ground so I can easily test both options.
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Jordan
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Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby Jordan » Thu May 30, 2024 3:20 am

blaat! wrote:
Does anyone understand exactly the difference between the stator ground lug being soldered to ground or not?



OK, here goes:

With permanent magnet, single phase alternators there are 2 methods to achieve FULL WAVE rectification.
That is, make an alternating current (AC) waveform into a type of direct current (DC) that fully converts all the AC to DC.
The type of DC is not a steady voltage shown by a straight line. Rather it is a pulsating waveform, with all of it on one side of the zero line.
With AC, the waves go positive half the time, negative the other half, and is useless for charging batteries or capacitors.
The battery, regulator and loads can handle the pulsating DC alright.

Method 1.
Called CENTRE TAPPED FULL WAVE SINGLE PHASE.
It uses 2 rectifying diodes.
In your Ducati, the charging coils are arranged in 2 groups. Each group is rectified by a diode connected to one of the two wires coming out of the stator, from each coil group. The other side of the diodes are connected to a load (for example a battery or lights). The other side of the load is connected to earth.
There is a connection at the other ends of the coil groups (of which there are 2 as mentioned). That connection goes to earth, so there are two wires connected to earth there. It's done that way for convenience, not having to run another wire back to the load.
Only one leg (half the number of charging coils) is active at any time the rotor is spinning.
The resulting waveform at the load is FULL WAVE DC.

Method 2.
Called BRIDGE RECTIFIED FULL WAVE SINGLE PHASE.
Uses 4 rectifying diodes.
There is no centre tap or earth connection at the stator.
All the charging coils are connected as one group.
4 diodes are needed in a so-called bridge configuration. The bridge network has 4 terminals, two of which are connected to either end of the stator coil group. The other two go to the load and earth.
All coils are actively contributing to the charge at any time the rotor is spinning.
Again, the resulting waveform at the load is FULL WAVE DC.
Being a similar physical design, that one group can have effectively twice the number of coils in series, compared to one leg of the centre-tapped system, so the output is twice as much even though the alternator is basically the same.

The conversion from a 6V to 12V stator is achieved by disconnecting from the stator earth point the 2 wires from each leg of coil groups in the centre tapped system, keeping the wires connected to each other (well insulated from anything else).
Complete the conversion by deleting the original two diodes and fitting a bridge rectifier, well attached somewhere for cooling.
Also use a regulator, which might include the bridge rectifier.
But if you want to go batteryless, the suggestion is to use a proven effective 12V regulator for the purpose, such as a Lucas ZD715.
I don't know of any proven 6V regulator suitable for batteryless usage.

Bevel bob
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Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby Bevel bob » Thu May 30, 2024 4:04 am

Method 2 is the system i have on my 250NC 66/67 machine Think Mach 1 . I altered the stator about 20 years ago and the bike uses a battery . The bike has had intermitent use for many years including 50 full days riding in the IOM and about 20 track sessions . Its been fine until recently but now runs the battery down if left connected .Time for some work!.

ranton_rambler
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Location: Stafford UK

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby ranton_rambler » Thu May 30, 2024 8:22 am

Same here - I disconnected the centre ground on my 175 and insulated the exposed conductor with heatshrink.
The reg-rec is a specific Electrex unit set to 12V and seems to work well.
I didn't go for the full Electrex conversion so am running with the original 2-wire generator and coil/points ignition.

I don't often go out in the dark but have an LED headlamp bulb conversion to reduce load if the lights are on.

blaat!
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby blaat! » Tue Jul 02, 2024 3:14 pm

Thanks Jordan. That explanation is so helpful and sent me down the rabbit hole. I'm now working on my online degree in electrical engineering :lol:

This YouTube video clarified things for me: https://youtu.be/qvcT2iC1N6k?si=ko_pf7_dRvgrYkRK

You can also find that video by searching up "Full wave center tapped rectifier (working)" on YouTube if the link eventually gets dead :roll:

I bought a second stator and rewound it, removed my flywheel and original stator from the bike, and got both set up on a mill with a multimeter and oscilloscope to bench test and compare options under load at known RPMs. I'm currently travelling, but will post that once I have some actual data to report. I also had my flywheel (re)magnetized and will post that in a separate thread too.

Jordan
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:29 am

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby Jordan » Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:46 am

Hi blaat!

The explanation in the video is OK, but I think the drawings of the waveforms could be clearer.
This one shows how the outputs from each half of the coil groups are staggered, and show the combined pulsating DC.
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mrkprsn
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Location: Virginia, USA

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby mrkprsn » Sun Jul 07, 2024 3:02 pm

Going forward I want to create something to smooth and maybe regulated the voltage. In the last picture, does anyone know what the coil with the horizontal line represents?
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veloduke
Posts: 180
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Location: Glos UK

Re: DC Voltage Drops While Running

Postby veloduke » Mon Jul 08, 2024 6:18 am

It's called a 'choke', and works with the two capacitors to form a classic filter circuit to smooth out the rectified AC.
The illustrations next to the circuits best show the effect.
Cheers

Max


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