Wiring-I'm Confused

[Harvey]

Ok Bob, take you at your word, no offence taken.
Lets push on, see where it goes.

Harvey.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Harvey ...
" Lets push on, see where it goes. "

____ Harvey, (or anyone-else), if you were waiting for me to get my last post all/completely-done, I've finally got it all finished-up now. _ So you may follow-up on anything within it, at your next convenience.

____ Have you yet noticed that I've edited your posted-pic.diagram (hopefully as you had wished) ? _ (And I wonder where you came-up with that from ?)
__ And could you please give your reason/explanation for having posted it ? - (As there are things I'd then like to point-out about it, as well.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Harvey]

____ Have you yet noticed that I've edited your posted-pic.diagram (hopefully as you had wished) ? _ (And I wonder where you came-up with that from ?)
__ And could you please give your reason/explanation for having posted it ? - (As there are things I'd then like to point-out about it, as well.)

Yes thanks Mate, I sent you a PM on, if I should remove the large one?
That diag, was shameless stolen from Phil Irvin’s Motor Cycle Engineering. It is the Lucas Energy Transfer System used on the Triumphs. Shows the circuit plainly. If you want I can describe its action.

I think you missed this bit.
“As for the “HT.sparking-juice”, that High voltage of about 12kv from the secondary, only exists across the resistance of the plug gap. The rest of the circuit only flows battery voltage at about 2amps.”.
____ No, I didn't miss that, (in fact that's ONE-thing I was referring-to [at the bottom of my earlier-post] when I stated: (cuz I'm led to think-of more than one concept that your chosen-wording may be meaning to convey)),, and had actually read it more than once, but just wasn't sure of exactly how it was meant to be understood (cuz it seems partially incorrect).

OK where is the “ incorrect “ part and we can look at it.

So where have you always been whenever electrical-stuff has been discussed in the past ?

Probably out ploughing the fields, cutting down trees, growing the food, type of thing, doing what we have do to survive.

____ Of-course that's quite true, as there will then be no high-VOLTAGE,, however the HT.current (of the HT.secondary) will still remain under high-TENSION ! _ ('Tension' is electrical-drive/pressure, [before it ever becomes measurable as 'voltage'].) ...
__ Some believe that 'voltage' is the intended term for representing "electrical-drive/pressure", but actually that's what 'tension' really is. _ And 'voltage' is-to 'tension', as 'temperature' is-to 'Fahrenheit' (or Celsius).

Word, words, wording. Terminology can change the meaning. Voltage is the measurement of potential “tension”?
I prefer to use the term Energy, described in our use, as Power. The generator produces Energy, we measure it as Power, that is the product of Volts X Amps. So a power of 200 watts from the generator, can be taken as, 20V at 10 amps, or 2V at 100 amps, or any other combination. It depends on the resistance of the circuit that is using that power.

____ All quite true, however the primary-voltage in the 160-system is not so much as "250V" ! _ Rather, it's only up-to as much as 70-volts (BEFORE being subjected to the operating-circuit, when it's then bled-down to much less).

I reckon it will be at least 250V, would get to about 375V at high engine speed. Need to put a scope on it to see the waveform. It is tied to the resistance of the circuit.
Cheers.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Of-course that's quite true, as there will then be no high-VOLTAGE,, however the HT.current (of the HT.secondary) will still remain under high-TENSION ! _ ('Tension' is electrical-drive/pressure, [before it ever becomes measurable as 'voltage'].) ...
__ Some believe that 'voltage' is the intended term for representing "electrical-drive/pressure", but actually that's what 'tension' really is. _ And 'voltage' is-to 'tension', as 'temperature' is-to 'Fahrenheit' (or Celsius).

Word, words, wording. Terminology can change the meaning. Voltage is the measurement of potential “tension”?
I prefer to use the term Energy, described in our use, as Power. The generator produces Energy, we measure it as Power, that is the product of Volts X Amps. So a power of 200 watts from the generator, can be taken as, 20V at 10 amps, or 2V at 100 amps, or any other combination. It depends on the resistance of the circuit that is using that power.

____ First thing I need to address is that I had SCREWED-UP my last (underlined) sentence-statement & stated that rather BASS-ACKWARDS ! ... As it should've been worded: 'voltage' is-to 'tension' (in much the same way) as 'Celsius' is-to 'temperature'. .
__ I've now fixed that error/mistake (within that post of mine) !
Of-course that's not a real close comparison, but it was something I could come-up with that would help make my intended point (about the relationship of voltage & tension) fairly comprehensible.


" Terminology can change the meaning. "

____ Yes indeed so ! _ And that's why I wish to have everyone understand the actual/intended meanings of all the various electrical-terminology, so that it's all not so misused & confused (which allows 'meaning' to be lost) !
(For example, the term 'voltage' is one term that's most-often misused by the general-public & rather thinking of it as power.)



" Voltage is the measurement of potential “tension”? "

____ Was that question spawned by my screwed-up misstatement ?
__ (Anyhow, the word 'potential' has splintered-off from it's original-meaning [which everyone is familiar with], to also be used as an electrical-term [standing on it's own] as well.)
__
____ Anyhow,, you've coined the phrase-term "potential tension' ... I suppose that could be used within a description that's meaning to tell of what's possibly going to become available within a HT.coil that could become electrically-charged,, but otherwise, I'm not much aware of such term-phrasing as that being commonly used.
__ But yes, 'voltage' (in one of it's aspects), is a possible measurement of 'tension'. _ And tension is that which exists before it's bled-into a circuit where it can then be valued as voltage, (it's particular voltage-amount dependent on the circuit).
To perhaps more-so address the posted-question,, 'voltage' is a measurable version of tension, once tension has gotten a chance to bleed through a circuit, (and voltage-itself doesn't exist until then, except as potential-voltage -[which is often merely referred-to as 'potential'] ).



" I prefer to use the term Energy, described in our use, as Power. The generator produces Energy, we measure it as Power, "

____ That's a good comparison that I could've used instead... 'voltage' is-to 'tension', as 'power' is-to 'energy' !
And even-still better-yet,, V is-to T as 'wattage' is-to 'power'.
__ BTW, 'power' of-course includes 'tension', (even if 'voltage' hasn't been determined within a connected circuit).



" I sent you a PM on, if I should remove the large one? "

____ My PM.inbox has long been hopelessly overwhelmed, (and I don't much care to spend time fixing it any time soon, as the issue with it just keeps happening again anyhow).
I feel that if anyone cares to contact me with anything to-do with DUCATI, it can be done through this forum, (for the possible benefit of others as well).
__ Anyhow,, as I had meant to indicate (with my pic.addition to your post), it's quite up-to YOU-yourself as to how you wish to 'edit' & leave your post arranged.



" That diag, was shameless stolen from Phil Irvin’s Motor Cycle Engineering. It is the Lucas Energy Transfer System used on the Triumphs. Shows the circuit plainly. "

____ Thanks for that.
__ I wonder if it's ACTUALLY correct ? _ As it doesn't show the HT.coil connected-up as a standard auto-transformer arrangement.
__ I've finally (slightly !)- altered & posted that diagram's scheme, so-as to indicate exactly what I meant about the original-version having not been properly depicted with it's HT.coil circuited as an expected std.type auto-transformer HT.coil ought-to be.
The original-version (which you had posted), rather indicated that the HT.secondary is an independent circuit from the primary-circuit, (thus being more like that which Jim had expected) !
So that's why I've wondered as-to whether that diagram's scheme is actually correct or not,, cuz for all I know about it, it may indeed be that it's SUPPOSED to be just as it was presented, (instead of the way which I-myself think it should've been, [as seen in MY altered-version, below] ).



" If you want I can describe its action. "

____ Of-course you may do that as you wish, but you may care to wait until after I've pointed-out that which I think may be wrong about it.
UPDATE - Now that I've finally posted an altered-version of that diagram, (which indicates the change in the depicted ground-circuit),, it would certainly be of interest to have you go-ahead & "describe it's action", on the original (and also on my altered-version [if you see any noteworthy difference] ).

I think you missed this bit.
“As for the “HT.sparking-juice”, that High voltage of about 12kv from the secondary, only exists across the resistance of the plug gap. The rest of the circuit only flows battery voltage at about 2amps.”.
____ No, I didn't miss that, (in fact that's ONE-thing I was referring-to [at the bottom of my earlier-post] when I stated: (cuz I'm led to think-of more than one concept that your chosen-wording may be meaning to convey)),, and had actually read it more than once, but just wasn't sure of exactly how it was meant to be understood (cuz it seems partially incorrect).

" OK where is the “ incorrect “ part and we can look at it. "

____ Really didn't yet decide for-sure that any part is actually "incorrect", cuz I'm not sure of exactly what circuit "only flows" "about 2amps". _ It seems that you may-NOT be referring to the current that flows through the primary from the battery, (of which 2-amps would be about what's expected).
The possible-issue much depends on exactly which circuit you actually mean, when you stated: "The rest of the circuit" .



" I reckon it will be at least 250V, would get to about 375V at high engine speed. Need to put a scope on it to see the waveform. "

____ So are you then indirectly indicating that his AC.reading of just "9 volts" is possibly why he's not getting any 'spark' ?
Cuz I've measured good working Ducati-ET.systems,, and even at max.revs, it's difficult to attain voltage-readings anywhere near 100-volts (on good v.meters, [without even being subjected to any other circuit other than merely that of just the meter-itself] ).
__ I could see where a really-good ET.system would start-out with such a high-voltage as you've indicated, but THAT must be with whatever Brit.bike-system which you happen to know-of.
And I'd much suspect that IT's HT.coil has a lower secondary to primary turns-ratio (than that of Ducati's Green-label HT.coil).


Enlightening-Cheers,
-Bob

[Harvey]

" Voltage is the measurement of potential “tension”? "

____ Was that question spawned by my screwed-up misstatement ?
__ (Anyhow, the word 'potential' has splintered-off from it's original-meaning [which everyone is familiar with], to also be used as an electrical-term [standing on it's own] as well.)
__
____ Anyhow,, you've coined the phrase-term "potential tension' ... I suppose that could be used within a description that's meaning to tell of what's possibly going to become available within a HT.coil that could become electrically-charged,, but otherwise, I'm not much aware of such term-phrasing as that being commonly used.
__ But yes, 'voltage' (in one of it's aspects), is a possible measurement of 'tension'. _ And tension is that which exists before it's bled-into a circuit where it can then be valued as voltage, (it's particular voltage-amount dependent on the circuit).
To perhaps more-so address the posted-question,, 'voltage' is a measurable version of tension, once tension has gotten a chance to bleed through a circuit, (and voltage-itself doesn't exist until then, except as potential-voltage -[which is often merely referred-to as 'potential'] ).

Should have said that differently. What I meant was that ‘potential’ and ‘tension’ are both referring to the same thing. It is the force between two bodies of opposite electron capacity, before any electrons flow to give amperage or voltage. Once there is a flow of electrons we can measure current and voltage.


__

__ " That diag, was shameless stolen from Phil Irvin’s Motor Cycle Engineering. It is the Lucas Energy Transfer System used on the Triumphs. Shows the circuit plainly. "

Thanks for that.
__ I wonder if it's ACTUALLY correct ? _ As it doesn't show the HT.coil connected-up as a standard auto-transformer arrangement.
I'll soon alter & post that diagram's scheme, (soon-as I get to doing so),
so-as to then indicate exactly what I mean about it.

With Energy Transfer, the two windings have to be electrically separate, as we can’t have the secondary current flowing through the primary circuit. It would retard the rise of the secondary voltage.

____ Really didn't yet decide for-sure that any part is actually "incorrect", cuz I'm not sure of exactly what circuit only flows "about 2amps". _ It [i]seems]/i] that you may-NOT be referring to the current that flows through the primary from the battery, (of which 2-amps would be about what's expected). _ The possible-issue much depends on exactly which circuit you actually mean, when you stated: "The rest of the circuit"

I was talking about the secondary circuit flow. If the HT power is 12k volts at 0.003 amps at the plug gap, that same energy is still flowing but at a lower voltage and a higher amperage. So the rest of the secondary circuit will reflect the energy that the primary transferred to it. Though this is getting a bit deep for the topic.

____ So are you then indirectly indicating that his AC.reading of just "9 volts" is possibly why he's not getting any 'spark' ?
__ Cuz I've measured good working systems, and even at max.revs, it's difficult to attain voltage-readings near 100-volts (on good v.meters).

I don’t think you are going to read these peak voltages on any meter. It needs a scope to see the peak of the waveform. Just turning it over has all the voltage shorted out by the closed points, except for the one wave, but when the points open the voltage will spike to the high voltage. If the generating coil is disconnected from the points, you will read the voltage of the AC generated.

" If you want I can describe its action. "

____ Of-course you may do that as you wish, but you may care to wait until after I've pointed-out that which I think may be wrong about it.
UPDATE - Now that I've finally posted an altered-version of that diagram, (which indicates the change in the depicted ground-circuit),, it would certainly be of interest to have you go-ahead & "describe it's action", on the original (and also on my altered-version [if you see any noteworthy difference] ).

The circuit that I posted is the way it is connected. If we assume that this is a negative grounded system, the generating coils/coil are producing power, to flowing an AC current through the closed points, so that the circuit has virtually no resistance. This means that there will be a high current flow at a very low voltage.
At the firing time the AC wave will be at its maximum positive potential. When the points open, the circuit is now connected to the resistance of the primary winding, so the low resistance of the circuit now has a high resistance. This changes the power from low volt high current, to low current high volt. This raises the voltage to virtually open circuit voltage, which powers in the primary raising the magnetic field, through both the primary and the secondary windings. It is the very fast rise time of the field that causes the secondary to produce the high voltage.

That is how the circuit works, but the Technical bit that has to be look at to understand the system is how the Inductive Reactance of the coils primary, causes the voltage to rise to such a high voltage. An Inductor has the property of not changing its voltage fast, in fact it resists the flow of the primary current.
As the current starts to flow through the winding, it produces a magnetic field that also rises through the same windings. This has the primary current flowing in one direction, but the rising field induces a current in those same windings that flows in the opposite direction. This causes the impedance (dynamic resistance) of the primary windings to become virtually an open circuit, causing the sudden rise in the generating circuit, to around 250V/357V. This voltage is needed to overcome the impedance of the primary circuit, to obtain the very fast rise time of the magnetic field.
This is the same as the Capacitive Discharge system, which stores the 375Volts in the capacitor till it is dumped across the primary.
Cheers.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Harvey ...
" What I meant was that ‘potential’ and ‘tension’ are both referring to the same thing. It is the force between two bodies of opposite electron capacity, before any electrons flow to give amperage or voltage. Once there is a flow of electrons we can measure current and voltage. "

____ I'm pretty-much agreeable with your chosen-wording's jest, and-so realize that you do know of what you're talking-about.
__ I'd only like to add that a main-difference between those two terms, is that relative to each-other, 'tension' is more-so 'here&now', where-as 'potential' would be more-so in reference to expected-tension/voltage. - (A fine-line of varied definition, that few bother-with.)

That diag, was shameless stolen from Phil Irvin’s Motor Cycle Engineering.
Shows the circuit plainly.

__ I wonder if it's ACTUALLY correct ? _ As it doesn't show the HT.coil connected-up as a standard auto-transformer arrangement.

" With Energy Transfer, the two windings have to be electrically separate, as we can’t have the secondary current flowing through the primary circuit. It would retard the rise of the secondary voltage. "

____ I-myself am not really sure about that* Harvey, as I do-not KNOW how the winding-relationship actually is, (between the primary & secondary). _ But assuming that you're totally correct on that, then that would certainly be a good-reason for the varied existence of the Green-labeled HT.coil, (in place of a standard auto-transformer type of HT.coil) ! _ (Sort-of wonder why you hadn't mentioned that potentially important detail within your earlier posting !?)
(* I'm not quick to buy-into that reasoning because, it's been found that ign.sparks still occur (seemingly equally), regardless of which primary-circuit input-terminal is chosen to be the one that's grounded.*)
* I've now posted a pic (showing the two diagram-schemes) related to this particular issue/concern.

____ Really didn't yet decide for-sure that any part is actually "incorrect", cuz I'm not sure of exactly what circuit only flows "about 2amps". _ It seems that you may-NOT be referring to the current that flows through the primary from the battery, (of which 2-amps would be about what's expected). _ The possible-issue much depends on exactly which circuit you actually mean, when you stated: "The rest of the circuit"

" I was talking about the secondary circuit flow. If the HT power is 12k volts at 0.003 amps at the plug gap, that same energy is still flowing but at a lower voltage and a higher amperage. So the rest of the secondary circuit will reflect the energy that the primary transferred to it. "

____ Well Harvey, you've now CONFIRMED that you really indeed had meant exactly what I thought your original-wording might be meaning to state ! _ It's just that I had figured that I must be wrong to interpret it THAT-way, because that assumption of yours is indeed incorrect. ...
__ I wouldn't argue-against that point of yours, IF the plug-gap (along-with the rest of the secondary's resistive-load) was the same as-if the gap was closed to zer0-clearance,, BUT however, the spark-gap is by-far the highest resistive-load within the secondary-circuit, and-so THAT sets the absolute LIMIT for maximum current-flow throughout the secondary's entire circuit ! _ (I'd expect anyone with your extensive knowledge to already realize such ! _ [Which is why I had doubted my interpretation of your stated-claim.] )
So-then if the current across the plug-gap is just ".003 amps", then that amount of current-flow REMAINS the very-same, throughout the entire secondary-circuit !
(Certainly it ought-to be realized that if current-flow quantity-values could possibly change whilst flowing anywhere within such a single closed-circuit, then electronics would have to work as-if 'magic', [cuz resistor-values would then NOT have their predictable effects on current-flow rates !].)
__ (However I must admit that WHEN circuits are involved with storage-batteries, seemingly magical-effects do at-times seem to occur.)
__ Now that it's realized you were believing that such changes in current-flow capacity-rates were occurring in the secondary-circuit, I can now better understand why you haven't realized exactly where that rather very-thin current-flow actually goes-to (after passing-through the plug-gap), in order to completely-satisfy the secondary's electrical-demand for a completed circuit-pathway.
NOW do you think you realize how that's ACTUALLY done, (rather than through the battery) ? _ Or are you still waiting for me to go-ahead & explain it ?

__ Cuz I've measured good working systems, and even at max.revs, it's difficult to attain voltage-readings near 100-volts (on good v.meters).

" I don’t think you are going to read these peak voltages on any meter. It needs a scope to see the peak of the waveform. Just turning it over has all the voltage shorted out by the closed points, except for the one wave, but when the points open the voltage will spike to the high voltage. "

____ OHH!, I see what you had actually meant now...
I had thought that you were referring-to the 'RMS.voltage' inputted into the ign.circuit (from the alt.stator), but NOW I realize that you had been actually referring-to the 'flywheel-effect' spiked-voltage (that's caused by the collapsing flux-field within the stator-coil), in-order to obtain such high voltages as "375v".
I was aware that such kicked-up spiked-voltages actually existed but, I didn't know that they had a limit so low as you've stated.

Now that I've finally posted an altered-version of that diagram,
it would certainly be of interest to have you go-ahead & "describe it's action", on the original (and also on my altered-version).

" The circuit that I posted is the way it is connected. If we assume that this is a negative grounded system, the generating coils/coil are producing power, to flowing an AC current through the closed points, so that the circuit has virtually no resistance. This means that there will be a high current flow at a very low voltage.
At the firing time the AC wave will be at its maximum positive potential. When the points open, the circuit is now connected to the resistance of the primary winding, so the low resistance of the circuit now has a high resistance. This changes the power from low volt high current, to low current high volt. This raises the voltage to virtually open circuit voltage, which powers in the primary raising the magnetic field, through both the primary and the secondary windings. It is the very fast rise time of the field that causes the secondary to produce the high voltage. "

____ Understandably not exactly worded as I-myself would've but, essentially all quite correct, Harvey !



" That is how the circuit works, but the Technical bit that has to be look at to understand the system is how the Inductive Reactance of the coils primary, causes the voltage to rise to such a high voltage. An Inductor has the property of not changing its voltage fast, in fact it resists the flow of the primary current.
As the current starts to flow through the winding, it produces a magnetic field that also rises through the same windings. This has the primary current flowing in one direction, but the rising field induces a current in those same windings that flows in the opposite direction. This causes the impedance (dynamic resistance) of the primary windings to become virtually an open circuit, causing the sudden rise in the generating circuit, to around 250V/357V. This voltage is needed to overcome the impedance of the primary circuit, to obtain the very fast rise time of the magnetic field.

___ More good-stuff Harvey,, I just hope that others with less training than myself are also able to grasp it all ! _ (Although due-to the seeming lack of interest by others of us, I'm doubting that anyone-else is much following this thread).
____ Anyhow Harvey, since you understand all that so well, you thus also ought-to grasp how Ducati's rather unique dual-winding alt-stator works as it particularly does !
So do you have any interest in that, as well ?



" This is the same as the Capacitive Discharge system, which stores the 375Volts in the capacitor till it is dumped across the primary. "

____ I recall reading in a cycle-mag how such a CD.system works (back when Kawasaki first employed such ign.systems in their 2-stroke engines), and while it does indeed work in a similar manor (as an ET.system), it's involved capacitor doesn't include any 'flywheel-effect', (as-like from the alt.power-coil), that FORCE-builds the primary's spike-voltage (when the points open).


Enlightening-Cheers,
-Bob

[Harvey]

" With Energy Transfer, the two windings have to be electrically separate, as we can’t have the secondary current flowing through the primary circuit. It would retard the rise of the secondary voltage. "

____ I-myself am not really sure about that* Harvey, as I do-not KNOW how the winding-relationship actually is, (between the primary & secondary). _ But assuming that you're totally correct on that, then that would certainly be a good-reason for the varied existence of the Green-labeled HT.coil, (in place of a standard auto-transformer type of HT.coil) ! _ (Sort-of wonder why you hadn't mentioned that potentially important detail within your earlier posting !?)
(* I'm not quick to buy-into that reasoning because, it's been found that ign.sparks still occur (seemingly equally), regardless of which primary-circuit input-terminal is chosen to be the one that's grounded.)
(I'll post pix related to this.)

First of all the ignition coil is not an “auto-transformer” that have one coil, with a tap wire connected, at some point along the winding. The ignition coils have two electrically separate windings, though wound around the same iron core.
If an AT is used as in the diag. that you posted, as the magnetic field rises through the windings, it would not only induce a opposite flow in the primary, as normal, it would have a secondary current flowing through the primary, to further restrict the fast rise in the field.

____ Well Harvey, you've now CONFIRMED that you really indeed had meant exactly what I thought your original-wording might be meaning to state ! _ It's just that I had figured that I must be wrong to interpret it THAT-way, because that assumption of yours is indeed incorrect. ...
__ I wouldn't argue-against that point of yours, IF the plug-gap (along-with the rest of the secondary's resistive-load) was the same as-if the gap was closed to zer0-clearance,, BUT however, the spark-gap is by-far the highest resistive-load within the secondary-circuit, and-so THAT sets the absolute LIMIT for maximum current-flow throughout the secondary's entire circuit ! _ (I'd expect anyone with your extensive knowledge to already realize such ! _ [Which is why I had doubted my interpretation of your stated-claim.] )
So-then if the current across the plug-gap is just ".003 amps", then that amount of current-flow REMAINS the very-same, throughout the entire secondary-circuit !
(Certainly it ought-to be realized that if current-flow quantity-values could possibly change whilst flowing anywhere within such a single closed-circuit, then electronics would have to work as-if 'magic', [cuz resistor-values would then NOT have their predictable effects on current-flow rates !].)

Yes that would be exactly right Bob as long as the circuit was powered by a source with a fixed voltage, like a 12V battery. We can then use Ohms law to work out any of the voltage, current, or resistances, and the current flowing in the circuit would be same right through the circuit.

But in this circuit we are using an amount of generated energy of no fixed voltage, just an amount of power, about 40 Watts that we can measure as volts X amps. This power will flow till exhausted. The resistance of the plug gap will set the voltage, which we measure at 12,000 volts with a current of 0.003 amps. Once the gap resistance is passed, there is still the same power flowing through the rest of the circuit, (less some % lost to heat and sound) but there is now a low resistance, so low voltage, say about 12 V so 30W / 12V = 2.58 Amps.
This is the same transformation of energy that takes place when the points open, and the power from the generating coil changes from low volts high amps, to low amps high voltage.

__ (However I must admit that WHEN circuits are involved with storage-batteries, seemingly magical-effects do at-times seem to occur.)
__ Now that it's realized you were believing that such changes in current-flow capacity-rates were occurring in the secondary-circuit, I can now better understand why you haven't realized exactly where that rather very-thin current-flow actually goes-to (after passing-through the plug-gap), in order to completely-satisfy the secondary's electrical-demand for a completed circuit-pathway.
NOW do you think you realize how that's ACTUALLY done, (rather than through the battery) ? _ Or are you still waiting for me to go-ahead & explain it ?

Well, Bob I could have a guess and say you are looking at the capacitor?

____ OHH!, I see what you had actually meant now...
I had thought that you were referring-to the 'RMS.voltage' inputted into the ign.circuit (from the alt.stator), but NOW I realize that you had been actually referring-to the 'flywheel-effect' spiked-voltage (that's caused by the collapsing flux-field within the stator-coil), in-order to obtain such high voltages as "375v".
I was aware that such kicked-up spiked-voltages actually existed but, I didn't know that they had a limit so low as you've stated.

“the 'flywheel-effect' spiked-voltage (that's caused by the collapsing flux-field within the stator-coil,” I see what you are saying here, but the sudden rise in voltage is not due to the stators field collapsing, as it is still generating power. It is the high Impendence / resistance, of the primary circuit’s Inductance Reactance, which is suddenly introduced into the circuit, that causes the voltage rise.

Having look at this system in detail, I think we can go back to Ducatikid’s problem.

=Ducatikid. I get 3.6 ohms between the 2 separate side posts. 11.12 ohms thru center (inside) post and to each side posts. Both readings are the same. There is no resistence or continuity from the center post to the can
Also, the test numbers on the HT coil was for the original Ducati Elettrotechnica coil. The same testings on the new 6V HT coil were double those numbers.

If these readings are on his coil, then the secondary has no separate ground, and is grounded at the same side terminal, as the primary is connected to. This then means the coil has to be connected with this terminal to ground, and the other terminal connected to the power source, or the secondary will be flowing current through the primary, with the same detrimental results as I have described above.
Maybe he could swap the coil wires over to see if that is the case. What do you reckon??????

Cheers.

[Ducatikid]

Ahhhh, it seems I need to do some experimenting with my HT coil and the wiring in my laboratory (my garage) later on today! Thank you Gentlemen for your hard work! Tom

[DewCatTea-Bob]

Ahhhh, it seems I need to do some experimenting with my HT coil and the wiring

____ As I've already covered at-least twice before within this thread, altering the polarity of the wiring connected to the HT.coil makes no notable difference in the intensity of the spark. _ (As I've already tried that reverse wiring experiment back in the late-60s.)
__ On your Green-coil, rather than '+' & '-' markings labeling the terminal-posts, you should instead find '1' & '15' , so please take-note of WHICH post is the terminal that's been connected to ground.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Harvey ...
" First of all the ignition coil is not an “auto-transformer” that have one coil, with a tap wire connected, at some point along the winding.
The ignition coils have two electrically separate windings, "

____ Okay Harvey, now this has to lead to going a step deeper into the related details (as could've been noted with the depiction of the HT.coil in the last posted pic.diagram) ...
__ In the PHYSICAL-respect, you are correct in stating that a HT.coil is-not a standard 'auto-transformer', because a HT.coil does indeed have two varied sets of coil-windings.
HOWEVER, (as could be noted in the comparison-pic I last posted), depending on WHICH terminal-post is connected to the contact-points, the HT.coil indeed may-possibly in-FACT operate just as an auto-transformer, ELECTRICALLY !
__ (I think we should brush-up on whether the auto-transformer EFFECT is ever actually avoided or not.)



" If an AT is used as in the diag. that you posted, as the magnetic field rises through the windings, it would not only induce a opposite flow in the primary, as normal, it would have a secondary current flowing through the primary, to further restrict the fast rise in the field. "

____ Yes, that's indeed correct ! _ And is that not a GOOD-thing ? _ Because without any such impedance-effect, there'd then be LESS reason to build-up the spike-voltage !
__ For anyone wondering what Harvey meant by: "it would not only induce a opposite flow in the primary, as normal,, that's the unique resistance-effect that's referable-to IMPEDANCE-type resistance, (which is a relatively-minor, but rather important varying-resistance effect that's due-to the building-flux TRYING-to flow current in the OPPOSITE-direction as the entering-current, but merely ending-up as a particular resistance-force -[known as 'reactance'] against the freshly-entering MAIN current-flow,, and-so this opposition-effect is not so concerning as it seems to be by the way Harvey puts-it).
NOTE - THIS RELATED-STUFF WILL COME-UP AGAIN LATER BELOW.

however, the spark-gap is by-far the highest resistive-load within the secondary-circuit, and-so THAT sets the absolute LIMIT for maximum current-flow throughout the secondary's entire circuit !
So-then if the current across the plug-gap is just ".003 amps", then that amount of current-flow REMAINS the very-same, throughout the entire secondary-circuit !

Yes that would be exactly right Bob as long as the circuit was powered by a source with a fixed voltage, like a 12V battery. We can then use Ohms law to work out any of the voltage, current, or resistances, and the current flowing in the circuit would be same right through the circuit.

" But in this circuit we are using an amount of generated energy of no fixed voltage,
just an amount of power, "

____ Well I guess I should've realized that we can't discuss TWO different ign.systems within the same thread ! _ Cuz if you & I can't keep it straight exactly what we're actually in reference-to, then certainly our readers probably aren't doing-so either.
__ YOU -(Harvey) were the first-one to touch-on the subject of DC.type HT.coils, and THIS-section (within our chained post-exchanges) has ever-since been anchored from that-point onward, UNTIL-now that you've flipped-over back-to the original/main HT.coil-circuit topic.
So I guess we should've kept each & every separate-paragraph within all of our chained-posts ALSO separately labeled (so that I would've known WHEN you flipped-over onto whichever ign.circuit-type) !

But in this circuit we are using an amount of generated energy of no fixed voltage, just an amount of power, about 40 Watts that we can measure as volts X amps. This power will flow till exhausted. The resistance of the plug gap will set the voltage, which we measure at 12,000 volts with a current of 0.003 amps. Once the gap resistance is passed, there is still the same power flowing through the rest of the circuit, (less some % lost to heat and sound) but there is now a low resistance, so low voltage, say about 12 V so 30W / 12V = 2.58 Amps.
This is the same transformation of energy that takes place when the points open, and the power from the generating coil changes from low volts high amps, to low amps high voltage.

____ I find this to be of certain-interest but, it will have to be further discussed, later.

__ I can now better understand why you haven't realized exactly where that rather very-thin current-flow actually goes-to (after passing-through the plug-gap), in order to completely-satisfy the secondary's electrical-demand for a completed circuit-pathway.
NOW do you think you realize how that's ACTUALLY done, (rather than through the battery) ? _ Or are you still waiting for me to go-ahead & explain it ?

" Well, Bob I could have a guess and say you are looking at the capacitor? "

____ RIGHT, Harvey ! _ The condenser is where the spark-juice goes !
(MIND-YOU that we're back-to the battery-powered ign.type, once-again [in THIS main-paragraph !].)
__ After the spark-juice passes-through the spark-gap, it then of-course needs-to get back to the other-side of the secondary-HT.circuit,, and it's shortest/simplest pathway is through the condenser-circuit !
But wait, HOW could the spark-juice possibly do THAT ? -(No-doubt SOMEone is wondering !)
Well it does SEEM like a condenser is a dead-end to current-flow and it IS indeed a road-block to the flow of the particular-electrons which had actually jumped-through the gap !
But what's possible to overlook, (as it seems Harvey had been doing), is that the condenser is a rather extremely large room for the relatively miniscule-amount of HT.secondary-electrons (cast-into the spark) to occupy, and-so they all get spread-out (on one-side of the cap.room) and lose their (otherwise combined) high-tension,, so then not-only does the condenser not get any chance to become exposed to high-voltage, it goes-on to do it's job & pass-on an equal amount of electrons (from the OTHER side of it's cap.room) onward-to the HT.secondary, so as to 'satisfy' it's electrical-circuit requirement !
So-therefore in-EFFECT, the secondary-circuit's current-flow (sort-of/virtually) passes-through the condenser, (rather than the battery, etc.),, as the condenser passes-on it's-own electrons to pay-back those which it had trapped, in order to completely satisfy the secondary-winding's demand for the (small number of) electrons which it had sent-out (into it's spark-plug circuit) !
__ Keep in mind that this is all possible BECAUSE of the fact that the actual number of electrons within the extremely thin HT.current-flow, is way-much smaller than the room-capacity in the condenser can facilitate, for the rather brief amount of time that the secondary-circuit is actually flowing it's rather miniscule current (of electrons) !
And-also note, that a condenser is LIKE a short-circuit (until it gets fairly-well charged),
and the amount of electrons within the spark-juice is way-too insufficient to charge-up the condenser !
(If the condenser were to be too-small, then this condenser-circuit would-not work as intended, and the spark-juice WOULD-then jump-over the points-gap [until the battery-circuit became the easier path to go-through]!)




Follow-up NOTE - I'LL NEXT BE GETTING BACK-TO THAT WHICH I HAD MENTIONED (in all CAPs) EARLIER-ABOVE, (when the discussion was still concerning the workings of the ET.system).

“the 'flywheel-effect' spiked-voltage (that's caused by the collapsing flux-field within the stator-coil,”

" I see what you are saying here, but the sudden rise in voltage is not due to the stators field collapsing, as it is still generating power. It is the high Impendence / resistance, of the primary circuit’s Inductance Reactance, which is suddenly introduced into the circuit, that causes the voltage rise. "

____ Actually Harvey, what exactly is it that you think actually causes that to be "suddenly introduced into the circuit" ??
In fact, BOTH of those effects combine-together to cause that (rather desirable) sudden voltage-rise !
__ Please let me next explain...
While the ign.contact-points are closed-shut, the power-CURRENT within the alt.stator is shorted-circuited back-to itself, and during that time CURRENT-flow is then MAXIMIZED,, and-so thus MAXIMUM-flux has then built-up around the stator-winding ! _ But next when the points open, the established HIGH current-flow is suddenly forced to instead go-through the impedance-resistance of the HT.coil's primary-winding, which (as you've pointed-out) causes a rather REACTIVE-inductance (which even more-so resists it's [sudden] current-flow), so-thus the voltage has to be raised-up in order to continue passing the very-same previously-established (short-circuited) current-flow which has next been diverted & forced to continue (through the primary-winding), due-to the (partially) collapsing flux-field around the stator-winding, (thus the 'flywheel-effect') !
So you-see, the desirable sudden (extra) voltage-RISE is-not built-up by merely-just one of those two effects alone, but rather due-to BOTH of them working-together to emulate a squeezing-effect* which causes there to be no-choice other than to increase the drive-voltage (so as to maintain the very-same/established current-flow) ! - (The fact that established flux-induced current-flow can-NOT be reduced, may seem unlikely,, but that's actually an established fact of physics !)
(* Or pincer/pinching-effect, if ya-will,, due-to the flywheel-effect's flux-FORCED current, being pushed-against the opposing 'reactive-inductance'.)
__ So bottom-line here, is that the SPIKED voltage-rise is what it is, only due-to BOTH of those effects (rather oppositely) working TOGETHER, (so that there's then NO-OTHER choice but for the primary-voltage to become spiked-up !).

Having look at this system in detail, I think we can go back to Ducatikid’s problem.

" then the secondary has no separate ground, and is grounded at the same side terminal, as the primary is connected to. This then means the coil has to be connected with this terminal to ground, and the other terminal connected to the power source, "

____ As I've pointed-out previously, such wiring connection-swapping at the HT.coil's terminal-posts will only change whether or not the HT.coil operates as an auto-transformer.


" or the secondary will be flowing current through the primary, with the same detrimental results as I have described above. "

____ But conversely, I really don't think that such "results" really-are actually "detrimental",, and actually in-fact would likely only HELP to cause the primary-voltage to spike-up even FURTHER-more, (as-like I've just explained above).
__ But perhaps I must be missing something (of your intended-points, Harvey),
because on one-hand, you indicate that it's the 'reactive-inductance' that's NEEDED to help the voltage 'spike',, yet on the other-hand, you're saying it's "detrimental" as well ?
So please straighten that out, if indeed I got something (you had meant) wrong.



" Maybe he could swap the coil wires over to see if that is the case. What do you reckon?????? "

____ Well Harvey, I-myself reckon that it won't make any noticeable-difference,
as the results of the swap-change will just be ONLY slightly-better or slightly-worse,, and (rather unfortunately), his issue is too-GREAT for any such slight-change to make any really WORTHY-improvement.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob