Engine #DM250-84644

[double diamond]

I recently acquired a 4-speed Diana chassis with a frame tag stamped 84644 for the engine and frame number. Anyone out there know of or have in their posession this engine or the cases? The chassis was found in California. I'd like to re-unite the chassis with original engine but I realize it's a long shot. MW

[Ducati Dude]

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Hi
Double Diamond

Good luck in your quest

Did you get any extra parts with the Chassis ?

Ciao

Ducati Dude

[Rick]

It will take some incredible luck to find that engine, but if you have an engine and just want 'matching numbers' it's easy to buy a reproduction foil badge and punch the engine numbers into the blank badge- here's where to get a badge:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ducati-Single-Frame ... 903wt_1211
If you have some sentimental reason for wanting that particular engine you have a tough row to hoe.
Rick

[JimF]

To the best of my knowledge, Ducati did not purposefully pair engine and frame numbers. If a motorcyle came out with matching numbers it likely would have been a one-in-a-million chance.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong!

[ajleone]

I believe Jim is correct, the foil tags on the frames really do not mean anything. Having said that, the 84xxx number could mean a 4-speed. What else is on the tag ? Does it say DM250D or DM250 ? Might be a bit of a clue if it was a Diana or Monza. Also, the fenders will help as there are several flavors in that era - upload some pics of what you have and we might be able to help.
Tony

[Rick]

It's not a surprise that the numbers didn't match from the factory- I knew they didn't for twins, but the only single I have doesn't even have the frame badge. With the twins, the title/registration number is the engine number, not the frame number as you might expect, so, when I rode my twins I would carry a copy of the registry that shows the known bikes with their engine and frame numbers not matching, just in case a policeman didn't like the fact that the registration number wasn't the frame number. If I was repainting a frame and removing the badge, I'd be tempted to make a new badge with the frame number the same as the engine and registration number, just to make life easier in case I was pulled over.
Rick

[joe46ho]

I think one thing thats being overlooked here is this...
Ducati didnt even put the foil tags on... Berliner did.
and it seems like they just stamped on whatever year, or numbers they felt like. I mean the engine # they stamped most likely is what engine was bolted on the frame at one time, but if you where to buy a new foil tag like the one in the link, and stamp it yourself... no one would know, except for those of us you told already of course

That being said, I also have a set of 4 speed diana cases serial #84801

Joe

[joe46ho]

X2 on what Rick said also, I have a badge to put on my 66 scr frame (whenever i finish it) I am going to stamp it and install it simply to appease the bmv girl that is going to look at it, because the last time I went there and started talking about how numbers didnt match back then blah blah blah, she looked cross-eyed and said "let me ask my manager" and lets not even get started on trying to make that argument to a cop, because you know how they are always right, even when they are wrong

Joe

[double diamond]

All good observations on frame tags, etc. Let me make a few of my own on the value of these tags vis-à-vis restoring a Ducati single to original condition. Bikes imported by Berliner and sold by their various distributors did not have frame numbers stamped in the frame. There were a few direct importers such as Ghost and Brooks that brought in bikes direct from the factory that did have frame numbers. Of course bikes brought over from Europe and Canadian? had frame numbers. Berliner either had the factory install the tags at the factory or they were installed at the Berliner facility (I’ve never seen any documentation on where the tags were actually installed). The tags are in Italian so I suspect they were produced/installed in Italy. Also, the font used to stamp the tags doesn’t seem to be a common font used in the USA, so the typewriter (or whatever they used) must have been some European machine. The frame number (Telaio) on the foil tag is simply the number that was stamped on the engine. So at the time the frame tag was installed, the bike was completely assembled. The bikes that actually had a number stamped in the frame never match the engine number so the frame number and engine number stamping on these likely took place at different points during production. Also, every frame tag I have or have ever observed had the year (Anno) marked as “196 “, with the intention probably that the distributor or dealer would stamp the final digit of the year when the bike was sold. Anyway, I’ve read many accounts where the frame tag is disregarded as “unimportant”, “worthless” or “meaningless”. In my mind, these tags are quite valuable in that they positively identify the model of the bike as it was originally built and identify the serial number of the engine that was correct for that model. This is especially important on the early Diana, since they were not identified with the “M3” or “M1” suffix. As far as just getting a replica frame tag and stamping with any engine number, this devalues the bike, as the engine may not be correct for the model it’s supposed to represent. Also, the replica fame tags I’ve seen under scrutiny do not look like the originals. The originals are very finely printed (silkscreen I believe?). The ink tends to fade to purple-ish color. The printing on the replicas I’ve seen is pretty ragged by comparison. There’s also the typewrite font issue. As an example of the value of a correct frame tag, there was a narrowcase Mk3 that sold on ebay recently for over $9K. It was in good unrestored running condition, but there were a number of significant incorrect parts and it was not a clip-on/rearset example. But it had an original frame tag with matching engine number. Were I to restore one of these bikes, I’d want to start with an original frame tag/matching engine number. This opens up all kinds of interesting subjects (real Mach 1’s have a stamped frame number, what are correct engine serial numbers for the various models, identifying model by engine number, “faking” valuable models) and I look forward to those more expert than me weighing in on these questions. The chassis I have is a Diana. What remains of the original is all consistent with a late 4-speed. The frame tag is stamped “D3” or “M3” (can’t remember which right now and I didn’t write it down). D3 would be correct for the year I suspect it is (4-speed, blue frame) but M3 would have been used on later tags. But then, I’ve seen a number of what could be described as “transition” models that don’t exactly conform to cataloged specifications. MW

[Eldert]

the story goes that the foil tags where put on at Berliners headquarters .
a IBM Selectric typewriter was used to make the foil

Eldert