Can anyone help me ID this better ? (Recent ebay find)

[joe46ho]

I know that its a mototrans bottom end, but does anyone know more info about it, like any compatible parts from the n/c 250 ducati etc... I know the bore and stroke are different, but doesnt it also use a different type of cylinder ? similar to an earlier ducati single ? 160/175/200 ? can you fit any ducati cylinder and cyl. head to it ? Is it worth messing with or should I just part it out... The seller threw in some other parts not mentioned in auction, so i think It was a good deal either way, even if I just re-sell it. If anyone needs it more than I do, let me know also...

Joe

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 2105wt_732

[Jon Pegler]

I saw that bottom end on e-bay and did send the seller a note to add to all his other posts.
The bottom end you have got has come from a Spanish Mototrans 250 De Luxe.
The engine no. starts 88... which indicates a motor built about 1964 or 1965 (Probably 1964).
I know some other people suggested that this was either a 160, a 200TS or even a 24 Horas.
They are incorrect.
Your motor will be a four speed model.
The five speed models like the 24 Horas and the Elite V5 had a different shaped crankcase and clutch cover.
Also, the engine number series is wrong for either of those models.
24 horas numbers start 96... 97... and 98...
V5 Elite numbers follow on from the four speed Elite machines starting about 83...
200 TS numbers start about 62...
The bore and stroke will be 69mm x 66mm
The cylinder head from an A-series Italian Elite will fit, together with an Elite cylinder barrel (jug), although it will not give you the full 250cc.
It may be possible to bore an Elite cylinder barrel out to 69mm.
As standard, those Spanish 250's have quite thin walled cylinders.
I've got a 250 De Luxe myself, waiting in the restoration queue, together with four more Mototrans machines, if you need any more information.

Jon

[joe46ho]

Cool, thanks for the info. I did get an nos 67mm 200 elite piston also, I dont have any older parts though, no older barrels, mostly just n/c and w/c ducati stuff, i do have a 4 speed diana case, not sure if i could use the internals out of this engine in that case or not ? (thereby allowing me to use a std. 250 duc cyl/piston, but then i would need a custom rod i suppose) may not be worth the trouble... never see this stuff for sale, so it might be worth putting it in my "parts room" for now if nothing else.

It was an "impulse buy"

Joe

[Jon Pegler]

I think you will find it difficult to fit the standard 250 cylinder from an Italian Monza or Diana to the 250 De Luxe bottom end.
Some parts are interchangable, though.
The crankshaft is different to the Italian one.
The clutch is different.
Most of the gear clusters are the same.
The timing gears are the same, but beware the plastic oil pump drive gear often fitted to Mototrans machines. (Prone to failure)
Con rod and crank pin are similar to Italian Elites and 175's.
Pattern pistons and rod kits are available in Spain
I know that the Spanish V5 Elite 200 uses the same cylinder barrel and sleeve as the 250, just bored out a bit more, from 67mm to 69mm.
I would have bid on the bottom end myself, but being based in the UK would be a bit expensive to post. I know, I've done it before.

Jon

[joe46ho]

Jon,

thanks for all the info, it should arrive here tomorrow, or monday. I will disassemble it, look over, and tag all the parts. depending on what condition its in I may either look into building it, or part it out. Im glad to know there are actually some spare parts available for it in spain. It seems like its hard to even find pictures of the mototrans ducatis let alone spare parts... I have enough trouble just finding someone to sell me a ducati 250 connecting rod/crank pin at a reasonable price. I dont know why shipping from the US to the UK is so expensive. I shipped an ss1-29 carb there recently...cost $130 usd... thats crazy i think, and it was tiny compared to shipping an engine. I cant even imagine what that would cost.

[Jon Pegler]

$400 to ship a bottom end to the UK by Fed Ex earlier this year.
£71 import duties once it arrived (about $110)
Jesus Llorente in Spain sells pattern rod kits for 250 De luxe for 125 Euros and pistons for 130 Euros.
He trades on E-bay in Spain as Guzman175 and is very quick at sending goods out.
Google Ducati 250 De Luxe in images for a few photos.
Looks much like an Italian Monza.

Jon

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ I find no fault with anything and believe everything Jon has claimed, (and he knows more about these motor-models than myself !).
All I have to add for now is that the cylinder & heads from the standard/short-stroke 250s will not fit onto such bottom-ends because, the (4)- bolt-pattern was widened-out since these pre-1961 style motor-cases became obsolete back then.
So to complete this motor, you'd need to find the top-end parts which have the older 'square' bolt-pattern, (as the 175 first employed). _ I've seen such top-end parts listed on eBay a few times, misidentified as 250-parts.
__ If you have any specific questions about parts interchangeability with any other OHC.motor-models, I may be of further help with that.
BTW, the primary/clutch-cover on the left motor-case was my best tip-off clue that the bottom-end was none of the other suggested models (125/160; 175/200), as I know of no other square bolt-pattern motor-cases which employ that particular left-side case-cover. _ (Do you Jon ?)
____ If this auction had been back when I still cared, one of us would've paid more for it (than it went-for) ! _ As I've long wanted to get my hands on one of those 66mm-stroke crankshafts for building the (76mm-bore) OHC-300cc that Ducati never got-around to mass-producing !


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[joe46ho]

Jon, Thanks again, I will check out that ebay seller...I wish ebay would just let you search all ebay sites at once, I have bought some things from ebay uk, and ebay au. Ill have to check out ebay spain.

Bob, I vaguely remember you posting something about that. I have a LOT of spare parts for n/c singles, where you talking about running the spanish 66mm stroke crank inside an italian 250 n/c ? Im also wondering if the 4-speed gearset out of this mototrans engine will fit inside a 4-speed diana case. Just curious about that because that 4-speed case is the ONLY 4-speed piece I have, everything else I have is later 5-speed stuff...

One other question if anyone knows, without me being able to look inside the engine yet, what did these have in the way of charging system/ignition ?

Joe

[joe46ho]

Jon,

Wow, I checked out that seller... Those parts are way cheaper than what Im used to on the ducati rods. Dumb question here, this rod im posting a link to is 125mm c.t.c. length, any reason I cant buy one of these to use in my 66' scrambler im restoring ? Best price i found so far is $340 usd from road and race, this one is around $180 usd. At this price I could buy 2 if needed, one for the scr, and one for this mototrans engine...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Biela-Ducati- ... _973wt_698

[Eldert]

Hi Joe
check out the lengt of the bigendpin . its the shorter type for 175 and 200 cc engines ( and mototrans 175 based 250 )

Eldert

BTW i have a bare cilinderhead laying around for a 69 bore 250 engine