Systems to Brighten Dim Lights on Alt.Powered models

[bettyann]

Dew cat tee Bob:


Checked the ohms with my trusty Sperry. Only guessing on wire color, .6 ohms red, .4ohms for white and.7 for yellow
for a positively 6v28 w stator, I looked up the 6v40w stator, the feed coil is soldered on one end of feed coil,but the lighting coil
is a continuous wire that both ends come out the front and are connected to terminal block.However they didn't color code the wires. Thank You Capt Paul

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Only guessing on wire color, .6 ohms red, .4ohms for white and.7 for yellow "

____ Since you had to guess at the associated color of each winding-lead's ohm-readout, then how about instead telling the lead-location corresponding to each readout-figure you got?
Was it .7 for the left coil-lead -(located at left on mount), and .4 for the right coil-lead -(located at center on mount), & .6 for the 2nd right coil-lead -(located at right on mount) ? ?


" I looked up the 6v40w stator, the feed coil is soldered on one end of feed coil,but the lighting coil
is a continuous wire that both ends come out the front and are connected to terminal block.However they didn't color code the wires. "

____ Still more confusion...
What do you mean exactly by "feed coil" ?
AND, I had meant to convey in my previous post, that while the power-coil for the ignition-system is grounded to the stator-plate of the 28watt-alt,, the power-coil (for the ign.system) of the 40w.alt is NOT ! _ And, that the ign.power-coil-winding's two leads are connected to the YELLOW-wirelead & WHITE-wirelead.
__ I do indeed realize that the two set-ups are not easy to keep unconfused, as both are at the same time, both similar AND different !! _ (As both models have their lighting-coils grounded to their stator-plates!)


Enlightened-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[bettyann]

dew cat tee Bob

On page 35 of the Ducati workshop Manual, The 6v40w stator shows fig 26 # 1 lighting coil a wire wrapped around it, with the ends soldered to the terminal block, the other coil ,# 7 feed coil one wire soldered to terminal block,and the other end attached to mounting ground screw. totally different from the layout of 6v28w! The Ducati bronco shop manual lists the feed coil And the lighting coil.I just read this stuff from the ducati shop manual.
So if I lay my 6v28w stator on my desk in front of me,with the terminal block facing me, the coil with the single wire,right, grounded,Red? .6 ohms! The center wire on terminal block white? .4 ohms, the last wire on the left,.7ohms yellow feed wire to feed the ign system. Thank you Capt Paul

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" On page 35 of the Ducati workshop Manual, The 6v40w stator shows fig 26 # 1 lighting coil a wire wrapped around it, with the ends soldered to the terminal block, the other coil ,# 7 feed coil one wire soldered to terminal block,and the other end attached to mounting ground screw. "

___ First of all, THAT (orange) workshop-manual is NOT really a "'Ducati' Manual" !! _ It's actually 'CLYMER PUBLICATIONS's translated (somewhat poorly) version of actual Ducati-printings. _ (Sadly, it's one of the best [if not The best] ever done for the U.S.!)
__ Did ya see my "WARNING"-thread about such workshop-manuals having excessive MISinformation ? ...
Well you've found one of the (many) screw-ups that I've hoped to warn about! ...
__ That so-called "Lighting coil." (indicated as "1" & depicted as the upper coil), is actually the power-coil that's been meant (by Ducati) for powering the ignition-coil & brake-light set-up which Ducati came-up with. _ (Side-note: The original 4-speed Mark-3 used the 'Motocross' electrical-system which had no brake-light! _ So that (then common only 2-wire alt) system was then addapted so as to run a brake-light by connecting it in series with the ign.coil / ign.points circuit -(which simply wasted most of it's power-juice directly to ground anyhow!).
__ That so-called "Feed coil." (indicated as "7" & depicted as the lower coil), was meant for powering the head & tail lights (only) !
__ To now better understand that which I had written previously about the coils_&_stator,, that drawing of the 40-watt stator, is rotated 90-degrees clockwise,, thus when I had referred to the "left"-alt.coil, it then becomes the upper coil in that drawing, and likewise, my references to the "right"-alt.coil, then becomes the lower coil in that drawing (on page-35) !!


" The Ducati bronco shop manual lists the feed coil And the lighting coil.I just read this stuff from the ducati shop manual. "

____ Who ACTUALLY wrote your Bronco shop-manual ?
Cuz for me, "Feed coil" doesn't make much direct sense. _ So I much suspect that a non-mechanic type translator did the translation (and thus did not think to bother to choose any better wording [such as: 'Ignition-Empowerment coil'] ).
I wonder if any of us knows Italian well enough to provide any explanation for that use of the word "Feed" !?


" So if I lay my 6v28w stator on my desk in front of me,with the terminal block facing me, the coil with the single wire,right, grounded,Red? .6 ohms! The center wire on terminal block white? .4 ohms, the last wire on the left,.7ohms yellow feed wire to feed the ign system. "

____ Well C.Paul, while it's very quite clear that the WHITE lead-connection is indeed the center-position (with a ".4" reading),, the left & right are still quite confusable!
So could you please, (now that you've read all I wrote above), refer to the two outer coil-leads as they are depicted on that page (35),, or better yet, (as in the real-world), reference them as mounted in the motor-casing!?
As I'm sure that we'll all appreciate it.


GoodFact-Cheers,
-Bob

[bettyann]

From "the" official Ducati Mecanica S.p.A. spare parts catalog, phone # 40.02.50.Bologna, ITALY 2 inches thick. This was issued to all factory authorized world wide Ducati service centers. My bronco is the same spare parts catalog,as the 2inch one.
and my Ducati ohc work shop Manuel, issued from Ducati Mechanica S.p.a bologna,( Grey )I also have the Clymer, And Haynes which was written as some Englishman's opinion, not from Ducati S.p.A. I'm not arguing with you, just stating that I use official Ducati service books, not Clymer or Haynes. When wrote about the 4 wire modification of a 6v28w stator,I believe you stated you cut loose the grounded end of the coil that only had one wire attached, and added a new "4th wire,If that is so,that coil has a red wire? Middle wire on the terminal block,White? the last one on the left should be yellow?. the 6v40 mk3 & early 5speed scr
is wired differently (coils).
All I'm trying to do is repair my stators, correctly by your excellent senior advice, and have a final scr with a 4 wire efficient system. All my factory tools and books came from my mentor and best friend, who owned and operated a Ducati authorized dealership for more than 40 years. He is gone now,no one lives forever, Thank you for your interesting posts,and advice.
Capt Paul

[ajleone]

Bob,
I am trying to follow this and I think I do, but it would be great to have some diagrams with the different stator and wire configurations. I would be happy to help out any way I can. I can create a CAD drawing, if you can either scan hand-drawings or email or PM me some instructions and we can work it that way until I get it right.

This information is invaluable and it would be great to have uit captured and posted where it can be shared.

Tony

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By bettyann (?)/ Capt Paul

" From "the" official Ducati Mecanica S.p.A. spare parts catalog, phone # 40.02.50.Bologna, ITALY 2 inches thick. This was issued to all factory authorized world wide Ducati service centers. My bronco is the same spare parts catalog,as the 2inch one. "

____ Not really sure of exactly what your point is here... Exactly WHAT is it that's "From" the official spare parts catalog??


" and my Ducati ohc work shop Manuel, issued from Ducati Mechanica S.p.a bologna,( Grey )I also have the Clymer, And Haynes which was written as some Englishman's opinion, not from Ducati S.p.A. I'm not arguing with you, just stating that I use official Ducati service books, not Clymer or Haynes. "

____ I myself don't have one of those grey-colored (official?) Ducati-ohc workshop-Manuals... So when I found exactly what you had been referring to on "page 35" in my own copy of the common orange-colored Clymer-book (by the same title-name!), I then resonably assumed that that book was the same as that which you were getting your info from !
__ So now I'm thinking that the orange-Clymer is an (exact?) copy of the grey manual which you have!?
(Even so, I STAND-BY my claim that the info in question is INDEED INcorrect!! _ IF that published diagram [of the 40w-alt.coils] is correctly labeled, THEN Ducati MUST have produced some (rare) examples which placed the brakelight-circuit in series with the head & tail light-circuit [instead of the ign.coil circuit] ! )


" When wrote about the 4 wire modification of a 6v28w stator,I believe you stated you cut loose the grounded end of the coil that only had one wire attached, and added a new "4th wire,If that is so,that coil has a red wire? Middle wire on the terminal block,White? the last one on the left should be yellow?. "

____ That's all correct (except that the alt.coil in question doesn't have just "one wire attached" !)... The lighting-coil has the RED-wirelead connected to ONE of it's lead-ends, plus, the WHITE-wirelead is (effectively) tapped-into somewhere in the middle of the lighting-coil's winding, and the lighting-coil's opposite lead-end is grounded to the stator.
So the lighting-coil's grounded lead-end must be ungrounded (from the stator) so that it & it's opposite lead-end (that's already connected to the RED-wirelead) can then be wired-up (with the use of an added 4th-wire), to a full-wave rectifier!


" the 6v40 mk3 & early 5speed scr is wired differently (coils). "

____ That's true, (concerning the non-grounded lead-end of the power-coil that's for the ignition, and, the lack of the added tap -[meant for a battery-charging circuit], on the lighting-coil )!
Even so, the same modification can be done with that model, as well ! - (I still intend to cover more about that as well.)

Challenged-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" it would be great to have some diagrams with the different stator and wire configurations. "

____ I've been working towards that end but, so-far haven't been satisfied with that which I've come-up with, thus far.
I'll post what I've got, here (below),, see what you think, and then advise.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

NOW with ADDED-INFO down-below.....


By ajleone : ...
" it would be great to have some diagrams with the different stator and wire configurations. "

____ Next, I have another ATTEMPT which is more to do with the added 4th-wire -(which I've tried to color red_&_green).
As can be seen, it's not finished (because when-ever I close the 'Imaging" program used to create it, it then looses some stuff which I had spent good time on, plus, it also adds noise of it's own which helps to screw-it-up even more, and so both problems are stifling my progress!. _ It starts-out sorta fun, but that feeling soon goes when ya see your perfect work get all ruined!! _ Don't know what's the actual problem, my PC or the program !?
Thus I've quit with it as is. _ [Tired of trying to fix it!] )
__ The yellow switch is meant to indicate that it's currently in it's lights-off position.
If anyone asks anything about what all this diagram (below) is meant to show, I'll then explain it fully.


Sorry-Cheers,
-Bob


HERE FOLLOWS the added-info I mentioned I'd add.....

____ The depicted diagram shows the 28watt-alt with it's yellow ign.power-coil & it's red & white lighting & charging power-coil. ...
The modification (in this case) is to the lighting/charging-coil, in that the coil's lead-end that's grounded to the stator is instead connected to a 4th wire-lead (red & green), which goes to both full-wave rect.blocks.
The stock WHITE-wirelead goes to the 1st-rect.block who's output -(twice that of the stock diode), easily keeps the battery charged (with lights off !), with it's rated 12-watts of power-juice.
The RED-wirelead goes to the 2nd rect.block who's output (up to 40watts) is only needed when the lights are turned-on!
__ This center-tapped* power-coil is more like the superior Jap-bike power-coils than any other DUKE-coil ! ... As the white-output is 30_to_40% of that stock power-coil's total power, while the red-output is near 100% -(minus up to 6-watts for charging the battery), of that coil's total power (concerning the stock 28-watt set-up). _ Which is quite similar to what Jap-bikes (of the day) had...
(They logically reasoned that voltage-regulators could do their job better if they only had to handle slighter amounts of positive off-balances -[which is when the alt is producing more power-juice than is being consumed] ).
So you see, with this set-up (I've depicted), you can do the same... Ignore the full-output of the power-coil until the lights are turned-on!
The switch (in yellow) can be a toggle-switch (that works like a Hi/Lo-switch), or ya could use a Jap-bike type handlebar-lightswitch which actually have a dual-switch -(that not only turns-on the lights but also makes the connection from the extra power-coil winding to the rectifier, at the same time! - [slightly more complicated wiring] ).
The only big difference from a Jap-bike set-up then, would be that a V-reg.unit is not needed in this case, since the power-coil doesn't make much excessive power-juice!
Thus the battery itself will easily do the actual voltage-regulation, (just as the battery is relied upon to do for the more powerful 60-watt systems!)!
_*NOTE: ... To see a similar coil-winding diagram, look at the lower depiction, (of an ign.coil in fig.28) on page 37 of the orange Clymer-book, nearest the bottom of the page... It shows a coil-winding which could just as well depict the red/white power-coil of the 28watt-alt, with it's upper lead-end representing the connection to the RED-wirelead, and it's lower lead-end representing the connection to the WHITE-wirelead.
As ya can see, it sorta shows what's going-on with the coil-winding that's the topic of this post. _ (Ya could even say that the thin center-wire is the added 4th (red & green) wire-lead, [if you're getting what I mean here].)
__ Any questions left?

____ Note that I've also added info to my Feb.18th-post at the bottom of page-5 (of this thread), mainly to better help C.Paul .
Plus I will soon reEdit the very-first posting in this thread, to correct it's slight but fairly pertinent mistake !


Cool-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[ajleone]

Bob,
Thanks for the diagrams. I hear what you are saying about loosing work on a computer - it really stinks to spend the time, only to loose the work !

Can you explain the last diagram ?

Also, was there a stator configuration that has the 2 coils and only 2-wires ? I just opened-up a older 4-speed engine and that is what I found ?

Tony