MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Ducati single cylinder motorcycle questions and discussions, all models. Ducati single cylinder motorcycle-related content only! Email subscription available.
Moderator: Morpheus

Moderator: ajleone

Teckhardt
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:25 pm
Location: Pacifc Northwet USA

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby Teckhardt » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:20 am

Cheers for the info Nigel. BTW - the new sprockets look good but are sitting on the bench for now.

I do have the system totally installed but I am still a bit away from a point where I could actually start the bike. I am wondering if MZB will produce another timing box - even though it would be a pain to rewire the new one. :roll:

I have also asked MZB about mounting the flywheel like you said and if anyone has tried that with a 450. Waiting on their response...

I would also be willing to tear the whole thing out and send it back if they would offer a refund.

Honestly, this project is beginning to wear on me. It may get put under a tarp and pushed in the corner. :cry:
1970 450 SCR

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:49 am

By: Nigel...
" I saw this thread and thought I might add a bit of info. "

____ And very good info at that !
It's always quite nice when someone offers such useful straight-forward knowledge ! _ And I didn't see a single point that was questionable, either.
Thanks for all of that !


" the system is designed to be set at 38 degrees BTDC at full advance with a starting (static) timing of 9 degrees BTDC. "

____ So then the answer to the info I stated would be helpful to know, is that the system offers 29-degrees (instead of 28) of auto-advance span, and has been meant to be pre-set with a 9-degrees BTDC static-setting. _ That's indeed good to know ! _ And that seems well suited for covering both the 250 & 350 engines !


" The system is set up at TDC to a mark which will give you 38 degrees BTDC. However, if you align the marks with the engine at 9 degrees ATDC this would give you a maximum advance of 29 degrees BTDC and a start advance position of zero degrees. "

____ If I understand that correctly, then it seems that the system's makers expect for their system to be installed/set-up while the crankshaft is kept a TDC, and the makers have pre-placed a "mark" (on their rotor) to be aligned with TDC, so that the installed system will then be expected to produce a max-advance of 38-degrees (total), with the static-advance intended to be (pre-set)at 9-degrees BTDC.
And so therefore, if the installer were to choose to rotate the crankshaft 9-degrees past TDC, (instead of keeping it at TDC as expected by the makers), while then fastening the supplied rotor-mark to the crankshaft, (the same 9-degrees, retarded),, then the resulting static-timing would be at the (possibly desired) stock 0-degree/TDC-point, with the max-advance point then being at only 29-degrees BTDC (instead of the intended 38-degrees).
__ If I had had anything to do with their choice of ign.timing for their system (to cover all three motor-sizes), I would've suggested they try increasing the auto-advance span (from their current 29-degrees), out to 33-degrees wide, and just pre-place three separate marks on their supplied rotor, (providing static-timings of [+/-1]; 6-degrees & 2-degrees BeforeTDC for the 250 & 350, and 2-degrees AfterTDC for the 450).
__ (I don't know why Ducati didn't produce 33-degree AAUs for their battery-powered ignition-system equipped models, in the first place.)


" As to whether this start point of the advance in this position of zero degrees can be compared to the static timing of a 450 at zero degrees, I don't know. "

____ If this means to state what I think it does, then I would think it quite reasonable that indeed they do directly compare. _ Cuz otherwise, their max-advance also wouldn't directly compare to the stock max-advance timing either, (as it actually does seem to). And I doubt that they were daring to second-guess Ducati's min & max settings (by more than 2-degrees), without extensive dyno.time.
However, the advance-curve's timing-plot is still in question, but as you've pointed-out, it's pretty-much insignificant.


" As you already have the ignition and I presume it's fitted, I would try setting the ignition as above and just see if it works. This is of course all at your own risk, not that I think it will hurt the engine..... "

____ Here I'm sure that Nigel is actually confident (as I am that he's right) on what he has meant to suggest, but just feels a (slight) need to allow it to be known that it's of course YOUR-baby.
We know that if the ign.timing is indeed set at the intended figures given within this post, that there can be no resulting damage caused !
Just check with the maker that the figures given here are not off (by too much).


" My only other reservation about this ignition and other crank triggered ignitions available,
If your flywheel moves or even creeps, with these ignitions, your timing is gone. "

____ This is a good point...
Flywheel-rotors with this added responsibility need to be keyed-in, and most are ! _ So for these non-keyed/stock DUKE-crankshafts, ya better make sure everything is torqued-down good-n-tight ! _ And if there's any added method to fixing the rotor to it's placement on the shaft-taper, then it should be considered.
There's another thread somewhere here that discussed ways to 'key' the rotor to the drive/pinion-gear... I'd look into that.


" A lot of the ignitions available for Ducati Singles reach their full advance by 3000 revs so for most sporting singles and race bikes once you are started, the advance curve is pretty irrelevant. "

____ I do agree and if it weren't for the need of kick-starting, any advance-curve would be next to useless, since it really doesn't have much effect on power even within it's limited low-RPM operating-range.


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Teckhardt
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:25 pm
Location: Pacifc Northwet USA

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby Teckhardt » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:17 pm

Update: I have requested a refund from MZB. We shall see.

Options from this point:

1) put all the 6v stuff back in and run it as is.
2) run the 6v stuff but batteryless
3) convert the alternator to 12v per Bob's earlier post - (run with 12v battery or without?)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64&start=10#p346
4) start the search again for some other "system"
1970 450 SCR

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:20 pm

" the new sprockets look good but are sitting on the bench for now. "

____ Still wondering about what sprocket-sizes you chose to go with !


" I am wondering if MZB will produce another timing box "

____ Unless they get as many orders for 450s as they do for 250s & 350s combined, they really don't have sufficient reason to produce another separate timing-box, as their existing box is adequate enough for the 450 as well.
__ It seems to me that the makers of your system were simply uninformed as to what is exactly different between the 250/350 & the 450's ign.timings, and once they have understood what that exact difference is -(the STATIC-timing), they will then realize that the fix is simple and wish they had not over-reacted to their surprise -(of learning that there must be something different with the 450).


" I have also asked MZB about mounting the flywheel like you said and if anyone has tried that with a 450. Waiting on their response... "

____ It's doubtful that anyone else has tried retarding the rotor that same 9-degree amount, so you'd probably be the first. _ (Cuz if anyone else was smart enough to realize they could fix the situation by retarding the rotor, they'd also likely know that the full 9-degrees is not necessary.)
__ When MZB realizes the thinking behind that which both Nigel & I agree on, they will no doubt wonder why they didn't plan for the possibility (of choosing different static-timings) ahead-of-time.


" I would also be willing to tear the whole thing out and send it back if they would offer a refund.
Honestly, this project is beginning to wear on me. It may get put under a tarp and pushed in the corner. "

____ Let's think this through a bit...
Not only would that be a big waste of your time & trouble already spent, but don't you think that a relatively short time down the road from now, you'll then look-back and think that you've over-reacted to a relatively small set-back?
It's certainly understandable that learning the unexpected news is somewhat disconcerting but, it seems really fortunate that you learned it before the day when you might've been ready to go for a nice first-ride and instead broke an ankle !
Or on the other-hand, much further down the road,, possibly then learned of a more developed news -(that the 450 requires a different pre-set setting), AFTER you had already had your 450 all-together & running long enough that you had by then well learned that it didn't produce the power & fuel-mileage that a 450 should've had, and you THEN need to take it back apart to redo the pre-set timing adjustment. _ (What a pain that WOULD'VE been ! _ And you've luckily AVOIDED all that !!)
__ So I think you're well ahead-of-the-game and actually ought to feel happy that you learned of the news while it's still fresh (and in development).
I think it's great that you've taken-on your advanced project and are actually paving the road for any others of us who may wish to go your route. _ And after-all, that's what you must've had expected to do back when you first decided to be one of the first of us to get their feet-wet (on this muddy-road), am I wrong on that ??
__ I think you ought to just shrug-your-shoulders and carry-on with the adjustment & finish the set-up, and then be on your merry-way with your soon to be quite-fine project-DUKE !


Extra-Hopeful Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Teckhardt
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:25 pm
Location: Pacifc Northwet USA

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby Teckhardt » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:12 pm

DewCatTea-Bob wrote:Still wondering about what sprocket-sizes you chose to go with !


Went with 428 chain size. 17 tooth front and 46 tooth rear.


DewCatTea-Bob wrote:Unless they get as many orders for 450s as they do for 250s & 350s combined, they really don't have sufficient reason to produce another separate timing-box, as their existing box is adequate enough for the 450 as well.


DewCatTea-Bob wrote:When MZB realizes the thinking behind that which both Nigel & I agree on, they will no doubt wonder why they didn't plan for the possibility (of choosing different static-timings) ahead-of-time.


My hope would be that they would design a new advance unit that would accommodate both the 250/350 and the 450. Maybe even offer several choices for each...


DewCatTea-Bob wrote:Let's think this through a bit...
Not only would that be a big waste of your time & trouble already spent, but don't you think that a relatively short time down the road from now, you'll then look-back and think that you've over-reacted to a relatively small set-back?
It's certainly understandable that learning the unexpected news is somewhat disconcerting but, it seems really fortunate that you learned it before the day when you might've been ready to go for a nice first-ride and instead broke an ankle !
Or on the other-hand, much further down the road,, possibly then learned of a more developed news -(that the 450 requires a different pre-set setting), AFTER you had already had your 450 all-together & running long enough that you had by then well learned that it didn't produce the power & fuel-mileage that a 450 should've had, and you THEN need to take it back apart to redo the pre-set timing adjustment. _ (What a pain that WOULD'VE been ! _ And you've luckily AVOIDED all that !!)
__ So I think you're well ahead-of-the-game and actually ought to feel happy that you learned of the news while it's still fresh (and in development).
I think it's great that you've taken-on your advanced project and are actually paving the road for any others of us who may wish to go your route. _ And after-all, that's what you must've had expected to do back when you first decided to be one of the first of us to get their feet-wet (on this muddy-road), am I wrong on that ??
__ I think you ought to just shrug-your-shoulders and carry-on with the adjustment & finish the set-up, and then be on your merry-way with your soon to be quite-fine project-DUKE !


All true. I am waiting to hear what MZB wants to do before taking any rash action.
1970 450 SCR

LaceyDucati
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
Contact:

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby LaceyDucati » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:59 pm

Hi,
I wouldn't give up if I was you. I would give it a try informing MZB that you are going to try it and reserve the right to return it if it does not work or they cannot supply you with a suitable box within a reasonable timescale. Changing the amplifier is going to be a straightforward job and won't involve rewiring.
I suppose I can understand your frustration and sometimes you lose confidence in a product and have to move on. If you are seeking alternative products a UK firm Electrex does manufacture a 12 V 120W Alternator system that is of very good quality. Although the system we supply is intended for use with a battery they can supply a system for running without a battery. They do produce a system that includes crank triggered ignition incorporated in the flywheel but quite unbelievably this system also suffers from exactly the same oversight as the MZB one as far as the 450's are concerned! (we do not supply this system). We recommend the straightforward alternators and a stand alone ignition system fitted in the timing side. You therefore have a choice of points or electronic systems available. Unfortunately I have yet to be overly impressed by most aftermarket ignitions. A lot of them seem a bit toy town and in my experience not particularly reliable. The only road system I have used and fitted over a number of years and been satisfied with is the Lucas Rita. Yes it is antiquated and a little bulky but its better engineered (made of metal) and is repairable should it give trouble. Lucas have ceased production of the amplifiers but we still have access to the last ones and a few systems on order. There is a follow up amplifier (Moira not a Lucas product) due out which should keep these systems going on long into the future.

I could just upset the applecart by saying that in fact a well set up points system will work as well as any electronic system. Okay you need to maintain points for optimum performance but these are old bikes and part of the charm is fettling with things from a bygone age. :) Although I have a Rita system fitted to my own road single I have only got the standard alternator using a Honda regulator/rectifier which works fine for me. Finally.... as most of us never go out at night it's debatable whether you need a 120W alternator (unless the original ones down on power or been mullered by a previous enthusiast :-) )

Best Wishes Nigel

MotoMike
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:40 am

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby MotoMike » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:20 pm

As Nigel said we don't go out at night. But.... last night I finished the rebuild and install of my carb and was compelled to make a few tuner runs even though it was dark. I was surprised at if not exactly impressed with the amount of light the 6 volt system threw. It has a NOS 4020 GE bulb (courtesy of Techardt) which I adjusted per the manual. I must say that I had no troulbe seeing where I was going and considered the road well lit. I did notice the brake light did pull it down a bit when off the revs and coming to a stop, but I kind of expected this.

Mike

LaceyDucati
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
Contact:

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby LaceyDucati » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:44 pm

Fair point Mike, I suppose my 12 volt system is a improvement on the standard set up. Mind you I also use a Cibie light unit as I do on my GTS twin. Ok it's not original but it's period &I can see where I'm going! Plus there is the added bonus that there are people out there who have paid a small fortune for my scabby left over Aprilia lens units on Ebay :D

Nigel

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:55 pm

By: Teckhardt...
" My hope would be that they would design a new advance unit that would accommodate both the 250/350 and the 450.
Maybe even offer several choices for each... "

____ I'm at a loss to understand how such a hope could be more than a fantasy because...
their current unit's advance-range is already as good as the stock range of that of all 3 motor-sizes,, and,
getting them to offer more than one choice for each of the three sizes might be conceivable if those were the only power-plants ever made in the world, but, we know that that couldn't be much further from the actual-truth.
So I think we'll be lucky if they ever bother to make another advancer-unit with any wider of an advance-curve range than that of which they already offer.


____ Still wondering what they have suggested can be done for your issue !?
Or have they begun to drag their feet towards you since you asked for a refund? _ As I would think that they would otherwise have presented you with all available options by now.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Teckhardt
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:25 pm
Location: Pacifc Northwet USA

Re: MZB / Powerdynamo Ignition

Postby Teckhardt » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:03 pm

Update:

MZB has offered a refund if I want to tear out the system. They have also not said no, to a new advance unit. I believe that they are still unsure of what the advance for the 450 should be. Their "experts" seem to believe that it is still the same as the 250/350.

I have the number for the US rep and am going to call him today - or try to.

Based on the feedback from people here, I think I would be the best if I can work thru it with them. Maybe the next person that orders will get a better product.

Will keep everyone advised.
1970 450 SCR


Return to “Ducati Singles Main Discussions (& How to Join)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 56 guests