vw points in a Duc single??

[MotoMike]

I have looked at all the vw points I could find images of. the attached images I think show the problem. Top is a set of Duc single points. bottom is of a set for 50 to 55 VW's. All vw points I could find, up through 85 have this physical lay out. On first blush, they look similar.

I don't see how they could be made to work in a duc single without redrilling and tapping the points plate to accept the locking screw in a new postition to the left rear of the points cam in the timing vault. If some one were to do this, the points would be opening with the cam about 120 degrees from where they do now and a complete timing data would have to be sorted. All the VW points are designed, all else being equal to sit on the left or referenced to the Duc single, to the rear of the points cam. If you could fit them where the stock points reside the points pivot will be on the bottom where the locking screw is and no locking screw would be at the top where on our timing plates, the pivot resides. In short, I don't see how you could make them work without major retrofitting.

Do other vw points exist that I didn't find, or were people using points incorrectly identified as vw? Or am I just missing something?

regards,
Mike

[Jon Pegler]

I've used VW points in Ducati singles many times.
I don't claim that they are a direct replacement for the Ducati points.
It may take some modification to make them fit.
I usually just make up a new backplate from 3mm steel sheet. That way it can be aligned wherever it is wanted, depending on ignition timing/ auto advance unit used etc..
It may also be necessary to turn the auto advance unit through 180 degrees.
The points I normally use are from a VW bug/beetle or old van. Possibly early Golf/Rabbit. Bosch part number 1 237 013 052

Jon

[MotoMike]

Jon

Ahh a new backing plate. That makes sense couldn't see how the original could be used. Other posts I've read, I interpreted to mean the points could be used with minor alteration.

I guess I thought that would require more exacting work than could easily be done. Can you describe how you go about it. Do you put them in the original position except with the pivot at the bottom to retain stock timing adjustment? Is there an advantage to using VW other than the 1/4 the cost advantage? would like to see some conversion photos. thanks

Mike

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Before others go this route, I wish to offer my own reasoning about such adaption/conversion.....
__ While I don't disagree that there's reason to try to find an alternative to the stock-points, I do question the logic of choosing VW-points, (of all available points-sets which also don't directly fit to the stock mounting-plate/set-up)...
It may have made fair-sense back in the days when the related VW-models were still in production, but since then, it only makes sense (to me) for those who also may still own such old VW-models, as well. _ It seems that there ought to be another type of points-set that's not only as common* but also easier to adapt to the stock-plate. _ (*Produced for a U.S.-made lawn-mower, or a popular Honda, etc.)
__ For me, it would be a fun-project to fit a considerably-better and/or more-common points-set to a DUKE-motor, however I really don't see any point in trying to do so...
I say that if you're going to go to that much trouble, then why not just do about the same amount of work (overall), by going-ahead & adapting a points-less system from something else?
__ On eBay, ya can find many used-parts of such points-less ign.systems from Honda-singles, etc., which no-doubt could be fairly easily adapted to work on DUKEs ! _ Bike-models which were first designed to use ign.points, (such as the 1970s Honda XL250 & XL350), and then later modified with electronic-ignition parts,, are likely better systems for being adapted to DUKE-motors.
__ Hasn't anyone else ever considered trying this (more worthy!) type of ign.modification on a DUKE ?


Fun-Cheers,
-Bob

[Jon Pegler]

I think it may depend on someones individual preference.
There have been good and bad electronic ignition systems over the years.
I've used Ducati Electronica, Motoplat, Lucas Rita and Boyer Brandsen over the years on many different Ducati singles.
I've still got the Ducati Electronica fitted to one of my 450s after 24 years reliable use. So long as the motor is kept buzzing, the harsh advance curve isn't a problem.
Having said that, I cannot tell any real difference with the motors with a points set up. Well adjusted, they are reliable and easy to maintain.
My reasons for using the Bosch points is that they are easy to obtain here in the UK. And inexpensive, about 4 UK pounds, 6 US dollars. The contact tips are also solid Tungsten which means that they last well .
I'm sure there are many other points available, but VWs are sold worldwide so sets of points to fit should be quite easy to get hold of almost anywhere.
Using points can also be useful if engine swaps take place. I have a 450 Desmo engine that can be swapped into a 350 Mototrans bike quickly. By using the same generator and points ignition, an engine swap takes minutes. With a spare rear sprocket, sprocket carrier and chain, all is complete in under an hour. To achieve that with an electronic ignition system would involve the expense of buying two expensive ignition kits.

[LaceyDucati]

If it's of any interest we are expecting a large delivery of points and condensers any day now from Italy. As soon as I have received them and checked for quality they will be available on our website. We hope to be able to offer these at a price considerably less than we, and others, have been selling them for in the past (Around £8.00 or $12.00). It's purely availability and a numbers game which dictates the price. Won't be as cheap as VW points but will be a straight fit. I will post a note on here to let you know as soon as they arrive.

As far as the VW ones are concerned, I can't see a problem with people making new backplates to get themselves out of trouble and possibly save a few quid. Substitution is generally fine as long as you don't modify the rare original bits so that you can't go back if you wish to. Of course this sort of mod is subject to the continued availablity of the part that you have used in substitution.

I have had many a confused conversation with owners insisting my parts are wrong, only for them to discover that the 19mm gudgeon pin they have is actually 3/4" and belongs in a Triumph!!! A lot of modifications have happened over the years to crankshafts where available rods were wider and a lot of cranks got machined down meaning you can't now use standard type components.

Nigel

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" we are expecting a large delivery of points and condensers any day now from Italy.
We hope to be able to offer these at a price considerably less than we, and others, have been selling them for in the past (Around £8.00 or $12.00). It's purely availability and a numbers game which dictates the price. "

____ It's too-bad that you didn't also think to post about this back before you placed your stocking-order for those parts ! ... Cuz then that way, perhaps you could've then offered some kind of (multi-piece) discount for any of those of us who would've cared to place pre-orders for multiple-units, and thus probably then would've at least doubled your total-unit order, (so as to have been better able to pass-on any such discount). _ As no-doubt most everyone here would have then ordered at least two points-sets per DUKE that they own.
(Anyone think I'm wrong?)


Happy-Cheers,
-Bob

[JimF]

I suspect Nigel doesn't have enough profit margin in points to give quantity discounts, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask.

I haven't seen his prices, but my feeling is the we should cut our parts suppliers a little slack so they turn enough of a profit to:

a) make stocking these small and obscure consumables worth their while

and

b) make it profitable enough that they look to expand their over-the-counter parts base for our bikes.

If Nigel is going to have shelf stock then maybe I won't feel compelled to buy a multiple sets of points per bike if I feel confident I can easily buy more points from him as the years go by. But then perhaps both Nigel and our community would be better served if we did order multiples and by doing so divide some percentage of Nigel's order into our own individual shelf stock. In that way Nigel's cash flow is loosened up a little.

My 2 cents worth.

Jim

[MotoMike]

I will be getting a couple sets when available if they don't go before I can get there I can see making a plate for the vw points which I can get for $5 a set when the correct ones are $40+ per set. but at $8-12 I don't see it.

If anyone is in a hurry there is a listing in Ebay under # 160476797505 for $20. No condenser but, I don't think it is that critical to get the "ducati" specific piece so long as it fits.

It boggles my mind, that with the number of various different points sets that have been produced over the last hundred years, that there is not some set of points that could just be plugged in there that come from a different application. Of course breaker points will probably get hard to find for any application as time crawls on.

I am not inclined to switch to a solid state ignition. These points are easy to get to and work well in my casual application. I recognize that SS would likely provide a more reliable hotter spark than I have currently with my 6 volt system. I did have a Dyna solid state ignition in my Guzzi, but getting to the distributor on that bad boy was a bit tough. It was nice to install and get set up and never get under the cap for the next 20 years.

[Jon Pegler]

Mike
I think I would agree with you.
Points are so simple to maintain and adjust that it really isn't worth all the trouble and expense of fitting electronic ignition, unless it was an original fitment or someone can come up with one that is vastly better .
Saying that, the old Motoplat electronic ignition set up was not too clever. The spark could be a bit weak. It was used on quite a few Spanish bikes at the time-Ossa, Bultaco and Montessa.
I think Nigel Lacey said in an earlier post that he had no trouble with points systems, used either on the road or whilst racing.
The Lucas Rita system was a very good one when it was still available, but it did pull a heavy current of around 4 amps to operate it. (On a 12 volt machine) Fine on a race bike with no battery but hard work for a road machine that may be used at night. OK, very few are used at night, but it would be nice to think that they could be.
I have the advantage of a reasonably well equipped workshop, so knocking up another points backplate and drilling and tapping a few holes into it is part of every day life for me.
Better get back to milling the stainless rear sets.

Jon