an oil leak!!

[MotoMike]

well I pulled that side cover and the oil does appear to be coming from the drive sproket shaft. the clutch pushrod and the shifter stub are both dry. I checked for runout both radial and axial on the drive sprocket shaft and could not detect any.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" I am running too rich in the middle to open throttle position. "

____ Then you ought to adjust your carb's needle so that it's clip is on it's top slot, (thus lowering the needle to more plug-off the needle-jet's fuel-passage).


" Got the low speed circuit dialed in now as I have no popping at the near closed throttle position. "

____ That's as it should be, as any back-popping during throttle-closing, indicates a too lean idle-mixture.
However (as far as being "dialed in" goes), with those Amal-Concentric carbs, it's fairly surprising how much the low-speed idle-circuit influences the more mid-throttle throttle settings ! _ So if ya have the mixture-screw set TOO rich, it can still darken the spark-plug with black-soot even during normal-riding !


" I can lately kick it over cold with a tickle or hot without and it will start at an idle and run fairly smooth. but a read of my plug still shows a rich conditon. "

____ That's the kind of starting characteristics that ya can expect from such a properly adjusted Amal, but it's mixture-screw should be adjusted only just enough to stop the (most audible) back-popping and no further towards the richer setting !

. . . . .

" Is it the clutch spinning through the oil that lubricates the gear box by slinging oil all over the parts there in? "

____ The bottom-side of the clutch does lay within the oil-level but it's pretty-much separated from the transmission-gears by a crankcase-wall, so it really doesn't directly help lube those gears.
The crankshaft however, does fill that oil-slinging role.
__ BTW, the term 'gear-box' really doesn't apply to Ducati-transmissions (like it does to old Brit-bikes), since those gears are not contained within their very-own 'box'.


" Or does the gear box gears run though an oil bath as well? "

____ It would be cool/interesting to see through the alloy-casing to take note of exactly how those gears get their share of oil from the oil-sump, but I'm thinking that they only get their teeth wet during acceleration and their bearing-surfaces depend on slush-slashing of oil within the crankcase while running . _ (So it would be more like a 'shower' than a "bath", for those gears.)
The wide-case crankcases hold more oil and include shielding (near the top of the oil-level) to help prevent the trans-gears from getting submerged in the oil-sump's store of oil during acceleration, so as to then help prevent drag.


" Wondered about the Oil fill tube on my 450. "

____ That "extension" tube/snout wasn't an afterthought, it was simply needed to hold it's dip-stick up/out from being entirely within the oil-level.
And BTW, when the sump is completely filled, it's level is elevated above the base (not to include it's threaded section of course), of that tube/snout,, or else it's dip-stick (as it is) would be pretty-much useless !


____ Sorry to take so long to get to this post, but I prefer to respond to the posts that most interest me first, (thus sometimes out of fair line-up), and we're each supposed to only post just 3 posts per day, (last I noted in our suggested rules). _ Therefore this kind of delay is to be expected, especially when this w.site gets busy.

. . . . .

" well I pulled that side cover and the oil does appear to be coming from the drive sproket shaft. "

____ It's been my experience with (totally-stock!) DUKE-motors that they only leak from that location just when their riders fail to turn-off the petcocks for extended parking, as leaving them turned-on for long (parked) periods, allows the fuel to leak down/through into the oil-sump and then raise the sump-level high enough to leak-out through there when parked on the center-stand.
__ Do you always remember to shut-off your petcocks? _ If not, then better give your sump-oil a sniff for fuel-contamination.


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

" I am running too rich in the middle to open throttle position. "

____ Then you ought to adjust your carb's needle so that it's clip is on it's top slot,

I tried that already Bob. the needle is as lean as it can go.


____ That's as it should be, as any back-popping during throttle-closing, indicates a too lean idle-mixture.
However (as far as being "dialed in" goes), with those Amal-Concentric carbs, it's fairly surprising how much the low-speed idle-circuit influences the more mid-throttle throttle settings ! _ So if ya have the mixture-screw set TOO rich, it can still darken the spark-plug with black-soot even during normal-riding !

Before addressing this, mixture screw was out 1.5 turns more than I finally settled on. It has another 1.5 to go to close it completly. when I say the popping is gone, I guess it is relative as it was fairly constant before. Now I am rarely hearing it. Against a trailing trottle down hill, I still hear the ocassional pop.


____ That's the kind of starting characteristics that ya can expect from such a properly adjusted Amal, but it's mixture-screw should be adjusted only just enough to stop the (most audible) back-popping and no further towards the richer setting !

I think I'm there. ordered the same size pilot jet in my kit.


__ BTW, the term 'gear-box' really doesn't apply to Ducati-transmissions.

Noted.



____ Sorry to take so long to get to this post, but I prefer to respond to the posts that most interest me first,

Bob... Say it ain't so. I pour my heart and soul into these posts, toiling into the wee hours only to find they are tertiairy in the interest department. Woe is me...

__... we're each supposed to only post just 3 posts per day...

this is my bad. I missed this rule and probably am guilty of violation. though, I try to be on point and not just ramble. . . . .

____ It's been my experience with (totally-stock!) DUKE-motors that they only leak from that location just when their riders fail to turn-off the petcocks for extended parking, as leaving them turned-on for long (parked) periods, allows the fuel to leak down/through into the oil-sump and then raise the sump-level high enough to leak-out through there when parked on the center-stand.
__ Do you always remember to shut-off your petcocks? _ If not, then better give your sump-oil a sniff for fuel-contamination.

I would tell you that I religiously close the fuel petcocks. I did howver find the air cleaner saturated and was shocked to see that "someone" had left the petcock open overnight. that was a couple weeks back. i did an oil sniff and detected no gas in the oil. found the level the same as it had been on the previous check, but I guess a bit could have gotten in there. I have since changed the oil again just because that was in the back of my mind, and the engine had been dormant for a very long time prior to ressurection and since I have been stirring up the sump lately, I thought I might drain away some of the debris I missed on the initial start up oil change. That was about a week before the noted oil drip.

why from the drive sprocket and not from the clutch push rod and the transmission shifter stub?"

-Bob

thanks Bob

[MotoMike]

after cleaing out the counter shaft sprocket area, changing the oil and installing a PCV valve in the vent line, I have not had this leak reappear. Maybe it just hasn't run down that far yet.

But, I spy another leak developing. where the oil supply line is cast into the cyclinder and head on the right rear. right where the head joins the cylinder, there appears to be a bit of weeping that is darkening the fins right there and running forward. No oil is dripping or pooling, but it is clear that some is getting out from that spot. I don't intend to pull it apart any time soon to correct this. Is there an "o" ring there or just the head gasket?

Mike

[LaceyDucati]

Mike

There is no oil feed on the right rear of the engine, the oil feed is on the left rear where there is an O ring. There is also no head gasket on a Ducati single. Either the oil is migrating from somewhere else or your head/barrel faces are leaking & you have an oily engine. Try torqueing the head down it may be the base joint has compressed, although that would not answer why you have oil in the bore. If you clean the oil up & run the bike & observe the engine you should be able to identify it's source. If the heads tight & it's definately the head joint,you will need to investigate it some time.

Best Wishes Nigel

[MotoMike]

Mike

There is no oil feed on the right rear of the engine, the oil feed is on the left rear where there is an O ring. There is also no head gasket on a Ducati single. Either the oil is migrating from somewhere else or your head/barrel faces are leaking & you have an oily engine. Try torqueing the head down it may be the base joint has compressed, although that would not answer why you have oil in the bore. If you clean the oil up & run the bike & observe the engine you should be able to identify it's source. If the heads tight & it's definately the head joint,you will need to investigate it some time.

Best Wishes Nigel

Nigel

thanks. Man, I did it again. got my right and left confused. I did mean the oil feed line cast into the cylinder on the "Left" rear of the cyclinder. I have cleaned it once and am now pretty sure it is the area where the o ring would be at the cylinder to head interface. I expect it will probably get worse. Not bad right now.

I can't find the torque specs for the 450 head bolts in the books I have. Don't think I have an oily bore. no smoke is visible.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" got my right and left confused. I did mean the oil feed line cast into the cylinder on the "Left" rear of the cyclinder. "

____ I knew that was of course the case, and just looked at that error same as a typo.
__ Too bad you didn't mention that leak while you had your carb off, as the extra work of fixing the leak would have then been a good time to tackle.


" I can't find the torque specs for the 450 head bolts in the books I have. "
____ I believe they're to be set at about 28-ft/lbs, (not over 30!). - (Let's see if anyone disagrees.)


DUCATIly,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

regarding the cylinder to head mating. is there any special dressing required to make sure it seals upon reassembly?

[LaceyDucati]

Mike,
No there is nothing that should be put on the head barrel face short of a little smear of clean grease or oil and even that probably more to make you feel better! I tend to do it as there is invariably a little movement between the head and barrel and I don't like the thought of squeaky clean metal surfaces rubbing together. I am only talking the lightest wetting and this will if the head faces are flat be extruded out on torqueing the head down. On no account put any gasket sealants in. As for the torque setting the only factory figures I have seen are between 3.4 to 4.00 kgm which at a conversion of x 7.233 equates to 24.60 to 28.93 lb-ft. This figure is quoted for 250's and 350's and I see no reason for it to be any different on a 450. Bob therefore is correct with his figure of 28 lb-ft. I have always used a figure of 25lb-ft and I have not had any problems or ever stripped any threads out of the cases.
Best Wishes
Nigel

p.s. Don't know how I ended up writing on here,I normally get enough questions at work.... this is supposed to be my week off and the decorating is not getting done

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" regarding the cylinder to head mating. is there any special dressing required to make sure it seals upon reassembly? "

____ Yes, at least there used to be...
In the older old-days, just before setting the cyl.head onto the cyl.jug & torquing it down, you'd spray the cyl.head with a light-coat of silver-paint, paying attention to try mainly/only getting the paint on the mating-surface area that contacts the top-surface area of the cyl.sleeve . - (Any unwanted over-spay was never really a concern [at the shop], but for my very-own work, I'd always try to wipe-off such excess -(that also got on any other areas), before it would get dry.
Sometime over the years, I fell out of the silver-paint prep habit, and never noted any difference after-hand.
I had believed that that cyl.head installation-prep advice had come from Ducati, but for all I recall, it may really have been Berliner's idea.
__ Another DUKE-mech once showed me a can of graphite-spray that he preferred to use instead and I gave it a try but, I thought it to be even messier than the spray-paint.
I've never tied any kind of grease but, I have used some odd-ball brand of a silky penetrating-oil that didn't soon *dry-up like WD40 does, (*actually left the metal 'wet') - (wish I could remember it's name, as it had a great smell too!). _ However that was only intended done to the cyl.sleeve (instead of the head-surface), (for engines who's sleeve & rings were already run-in), more to help prevent ring-sticking than the head/sleeve mating.
That prep was always done on my very-own work, just before installing the cyl.head - (I'd put the piston at BDC and then spray-over ALL of the cyl.sleeve's exposed surfaces, letting a bit run-down & get into the ring-grooves),, and I developed that habit about 5-years after I had given-up the spray of silver-paint habit, so never did both preps together.
Of those two different prep-ideas, I'd recommend the metal-wetting oil. _ (Maybe someone else knows of that and can remind us of it's brand-name.)
But no prep at all doesn't lead to any problems that I know of.
____ As for the required O-ring/seal... I once acquired a large lot of appropriately-sized rubber-rings which had a square (rather than the stock round) cross-section/profile, which seemed to work better than the stock-type O-ring/seals. _ But that stash came from the late '60s, and I suppose that there's something even better for the job, these days.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob