change to std bars and footrests

[themoudie]

Aye Alex, I posted about swan neck bars a short while ago, here is the link: Motoscrubs_Raised_bars_query_2020

As an aside Tony Brancato used to make a rear brake lever replacement arrangment similar to that made by Nigel for himself, but I do not see it on his current web site and as Nigel intimates, the costs to produce the item will likely preclude a stampede of demand. However, Tony's contact details are linked here: Brancato_Engineering_contacts

My regards, Bill

[Gianni]

If I may, I'd like to go a bit off topic before returning to the subject at hand. The pics posted by Craig of '74 Mark 3 bikes show them with the
conical (?) or flat headlight assembly, shared I believe with the RT and Yellow Disc Sport Desmo. My 450 Blue and Gold, and every one I have seen pics of from the the states has the egg shaped bucket from the earlier road bikes (and scramblers, I think). Is this view correct? Secondly, I have seen some conflicting references here on the correct wheel size for these bikes. Please correct me if I am wrong. All of the alloy rim Mark 3 & 3D road bikes had WM2 rims, front and rear. My essentially complete '74 Blue and Gold has a 19 x 36 front and 18 x 36 rear. My '74 Yellow Disc Sport (bitsa) has a 18 x 40 front and 18 x 36 rear. I also have a '71-'72 Silver Shotgun frame plus most of the hard to find bits. Will it take an 18 x 36 or 19 x 36 front rim? Between the 3 project bikes, I am short one front rim. I want to get the wheel rim size right, so that my heirs can make a right job of it.

As to the standard bars and footrests. Every Blue and Gold stateside that I have seen pics of, plus my own, came with standard bars and forward control footrests. The fellow I acquired my bike from had tossed the upright bars and added a pair of clip-ons too short to adequately accept the front
brake perch, then parked the un-rideable bike. I will address that. To find a set of swan neck clip-ons, explore the next auto jumble with significant Spanish bike content. My Bultaco Mk 2 Metralla came with swan necks with a rise of about 5" at the grip end. I think they are 35mm tubes. but have never seen the unexposed tubes. My Mk 3 Matador has swan neck clips-ons with a grip end rise of near 10", and are definitely 35mm tubes.

I will greatly appreciate any help on my wheel rim questions.

John

[themoudie]

Aye Gianni,

Headlamps? Both of the images posted by ventodue are restored machines. The 239cc MKIII in the first image was produced for the French market alone. The 250 MKIII in the second image is also, so far as I can see, restored to standard.

All of the 1974 to 1976 last production MKIII's, 239cc, 250cc, 350cc and 436cc (450) were finished in the colours of the two machines in the images. The majority of those brought into the UK by Coburn & Hughes, the UK importers had the crippling control layout of the two machines in the images. Clip-ons with the lever mounts welded to the bars, including a de-compressor on some 350cc and all 450cc machines. Whilst the footrests and controls remained in the forward position designed for the upright handlebar configuration. Rear-set controls using the pillion footrest mounting position were definitely an owner modification.

The 'flat headlight' assembly was fitted to all of these post'73 models imported over here by Coburn & Hughes. The 'egg shaped headlight' appears to have been fitted to the pre- 1974 production models.

As for rim sizes, my '74 450 MKIII has a 18" WM2/185 36 spoke Borrani rim on the front wheel and a 18" WM3 36 spoke Borrani rim on the rear (I have owned the machine since 1976 and I'm the second owner) and believe them to be "original". Also a 1975 350 MKIII has a 19" WM2/185 36 spoke Borrani rim on the front wheel and a 18" WM3 36 spoke Borrani rim on the rear and a 1975 450 MKIII with a 18" WM2/185 36 spoke Borrani rim on the front wheel and a 18" WM3 36 spoke Borrani rim on the rear. I believe that production stocks were being run down and that a policy of using what was to hand to finish the machines was ongoing. As for your 'Silver Shotgun', the tank will not like the current ethanol fuel and I believe that they were fitted with the Marzocchi 35mm forks, the back to back Grimeca double drum front brakes and laced into a Borrani 18" WM2/185 36 spoke Borrani rim. Others may beg to differ and I have no problem with that. My 1975 350 MKIII front rim is different from the specification listed by Mick Walker in his Restoration Handbook for these machines?

The main thing with these machines is to get them on the road and to wear them out! Then you can be pleased that you are using a sustainable form of transport. Whilst keeping our spares suppliers in business.

Good health, Bill

[Gianni]

Well Bill, thanks for responding. It sounds like any rim size I settle on won't be wrong. The Yellow Disc Sport and all of the Supersports came with 18" front wheels and glassfibre fenders. The 750 Sport came with a 19" front wheel and glassfibre fender. I think I will go with an 18" front, as that matches the Yellow Disc Sport.

The issue of gasohol here is not a deal killer for glassfibre tanks. Over the last several years, some refiners/filling stations have introduced alcohol free regular gas. I can buy it about 15 miles from where I live and keep it on hand in 20L jerry cans.

Regarding fork specs, my prior understanding is that the Silver Shotgun came with Ceriani 35mm forks (not GP, but no bar mount lugs), while the Yellow Disc Sport
came with 35mm Marzocchi forks, also without bar mount lugs. The fork spacing is roughly 170mm and 200 mm, respectively. The Ceriani offset is substantially greater than the Marzocchi for offset, though I haven't measured them. I hope I haven't made an application mistake, the set of Ceriani were frightfully expensive. Though I will say, they are a work of art.

As a note to Scottish888, just this past Wednesday, a fellow stopped by my place to inquire about converting his 1974 Blue & Gold, I think it is a 450. He wants to convert it to a Silver Shotgun. That suggests that he has a set of forward controls and a Marzocchi top tripple clamp fit for handlebrs available for a swap. I advised him to ring up JimF and join the list, but he works as an engineering consultant in the dredging field, and is always on the go. I will happily help initiate the opportunity for a mutually beneficial conversation, if you would like. He seems a hale fellow well met, and I am helping him with bits he needs for that project and the '77 900SS he got from his dad with only about 1300 miles on the clock, it has some rusty bits. If you are interested in a conversation, I am johnwatrousa@usa.net

Again Bill, thanks. Gianni

[graeme]

Hello Gianni

Silver Shotgun had Mazocchi 35mm forks and fixed (welded) lever perches.
‘74 yellow disc brake bikes had Ceriani 35 forks and movable levers

Wider triple clamps on the yellow bikes

Regards
Graeme

[desmo900]

I am the gentleman John is referring to. I have the correct top triple clamp that Scottish888 needs. I also have forward controls but I believe they are from a 1972. Will they be the same?

[blethermaskite]

I have owned my blue and gold 1974 mk3 350 from new, came with....... wm2 x 36 x 18 alloy rear rim, wm2 x 36 x 19 alloy front rim, steel front mudguard, steel tank, and full chrome "conical type" headlamp, over the years I have swapped out the std.marzocchi forks for 35mm ceriani GP legs and sliders in the marzocchi tripple clamps and reduced the front wheel size to wm2 x 18. (and fitted rearset footrests as I couldn't ride it with the standard set up).
Cheers,
George

[Gianni]

Well Graeme, that'll learn me to not post online after I have started on my grog ration. Had I proceeded to assemble the Yellow Sport bits, hopefully I would have caught on at the point when I tried to fit the 40 spoke disc wheel Borrani to the Marzocchi forks with no place to mount the caliper. Yes, it is the Marzocchi forks that measure~170mm between centers and the Ceriani that measure ~200mm between centers. Doh!

[Gianni]

I think your foot control bits are right if they came from a road bike. If they came from
a scrambler, they are mostly wrong. Scrambler footpegs are folding with round rubbers, similar to 750GT. The shift lever is toe only, aluminum die cast, I would think. Brake lever is correct. '74 Mark 3 has non-folding footrest with oval shaped rubbers with DUCATI deeply embosed on top and bottom surfaces. Shift lever is tow and heel and a chrome plated casting. The brake lever for both is a chrome plated steel or cast iron casting, about 12 inches long.

John

[Scottish888]

Thanks all for the advice and help.
what does an original handlebar mount top yoke look like for a 1974 250 MK3?
Seen a the occasional item on ebay over time but never sure what should be on my bike.
I will need the full footrest kit inc the brackets.
I am thinking to mod some BMW R80 rear footrests as they have the same serated lock plates, trouble with that idea is I need to find a customiser who will be cutting off those frame extension serated mounting points. that way I would get good size, adjustable and foldable foot rests.
Looking forwards to a more comfortable and safe ride with higher bars and std footrest position.
On my bike the original clip ons have allen screw lever clamps so I should be able to swap the levers over.
Thats all original paint on my bike, impressive since it lived outside in an open shed in Scotland for years before I found it, the frame has been painted around the welded on rear brake cable mounting but the rest is original
Regards

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