rich running

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Duccout
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:20 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: rich running

Postby Duccout » Mon May 11, 2020 12:13 pm

It's true that when (I'll call it electronic ignition, as I don't know the difference between the systems) came along, most people viewed it with suspicion, as it was all magic, compared to a nice, simple points ignition. The same was said by the old timers, when I started riding, when talking about contact breaker and coil systems - they all preferred a nice magneto. I've always been a fan though, loving the fit and forget aspect of EI. I fitted a Lucas RITA to my 750 Sport in 1976, which gave no trouble whatsoever and is still going strong now, over 40 years later. My 900 S2 has also been run with a RITA since 1985, and again has given no trouble whatsoever (perhaps I shouldn't have said that!). They are dead easy to time and simple to install.

blethermaskite
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Location: northern ireland

Re: rich running

Postby blethermaskite » Mon May 11, 2020 12:19 pm

As with many others I have suffered the eccentricities of the two variants of electronic ignition fitted to the late widecase singles, motoplat on my 350mk3 and ducati electronica on 2 of my desmo singles, (plus all the ducati's I have worked on for others).......almost needless to say on my own bikes they have all been replaced......the motoplat on the 350 just got weaker and weaker on the spark at kicking speeds until it just could not be started even on a 'bump', replaced with Lucas rita which has been faultless for nearly 15 years, both of my own desmo singles over the years including my current 250 had their ducati electronica replaced with points and coil during an overall 12v conversion, again with no adverse effects that I can determine.
If it were me I would just convert it back to points and in your case a 6v coil, and as was mentioned before at least "you can see it working".
stay well,
Cheers,
George

Ventodue
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: rich running

Postby Ventodue » Mon May 11, 2020 1:43 pm

graeme wrote:And a lot more reliable than the later “boiled in oil” system used on square case twins.

:D . Btw, this accusation that the insulation on the Bosch pick-up wires fails because they're exposed to hot engine oil ...

Can't be entirely true. 'Cos it falls off the same Bosch pick-ups in just the same way on late Laverda triples, e.g RGS. And there, they're in an entirely oil-free environment :) . Only advantage: there isn't any oil to transport all those lovely little bits of iron filings that then stick to the wires and short them out :evil:

It was just crap insulation from the get-go :roll:

Scottish888
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland UK

Re: rich running

Postby Scottish888 » Mon May 11, 2020 2:03 pm

One day this will be sorted then hopefully others can cut out all the fault finding I have done with all the help from you guys.
If 54 deg BTDC is the static setting for a ducati 250 like mine, I think there is not enough adjustment in the back plate slot to accomodate this, at 37 deg there some movement available but it doesn't look like it will go to 54deg.
Has anyone out there with a 250 and eletronica ign set it to 54 deg?

Regards,

Alex

Duccout
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Location: Essex UK

Re: rich running

Postby Duccout » Mon May 11, 2020 2:08 pm

Craig, do you think that if new owners (when the bikes were new) had added an extra layer of insulation to the Bosch pick-ups, that would have stopped the wiring deteriorating? I will never know, having dumped my Bosch system 35 years ago, as it was far too much aggravation to set up, needing the special tool.

Ventodue
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: rich running

Postby Ventodue » Mon May 11, 2020 2:31 pm

Duccout wrote:Craig, do you think that if new owners (when the bikes were new) had added an extra layer of insulation to the Bosch pick-ups, that would have stopped the wiring deteriorating?

Dunno. All I can say is that I'm still running it in my SSD. But I do make sure that:
a) I don't leave it too long between oil changes ;)
b) If ever I have to take the clutch cover off (as I did recently ...), I clean off any 'fur' from the pick-ups and their wires. Which, to be fair to Bosch, seem to be ok at the mo'.

So I dunno ...

P.s The system is not nice on Laverdas. Produces a horrible lurch at town riding speeds. Very hard to eliminate even when set-up ultra carefully. Changed mine to a Witt many moons back. That wise man, Uwe Witt, designed his system using a single optical sensor rather than 3x pulse generators 8-) .

Dan C
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:52 am
Location: Armidale, NSW, Australia

Re: rich running

Postby Dan C » Tue May 19, 2020 6:16 am

For what its worth.....

When I had a similar problem on the 450 the first thing I did was replace the Ducati Elecctronica ignition with a Sachse 6v ignition. The Sachse ignition does away with the transducer and uses a coil instead. Sachse also supply a 12v ignition if you want to convert to 12v.

It did not solve my problem which turned out to be carburation......

But it might be something to consider instead of points.
The ignition was dead easy to install and set up and I'm allergic to electrons and have very little idea how they work.
The only issue I encountered was that the instructions assume you are replacing points which draw their power from the battery. As others have mentioned in this thread the DE system does not draw its power from the battery, (one alternator winding goes directly to the transducer) so you have to reconfigure the wiring to get the power from the battery to the coil. But even I could figure out how to do that by looking at a coil ignition wiring diagram, so its not hard.

The only drawback to Sachse ignition is the cost, I imagine points would be considerably cheaper.

Cheers Dan

LaceyDucati
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:30 pm
Location: Wales UK
Contact:

Re: rich running

Postby LaceyDucati » Tue May 19, 2020 8:36 am

Hi

I will add weight to Craig's suggestion that the deterioration of Bosch pickup wire has little to do with oil. A few years back whilst in Italy I purchased a new old stock Bevel primary cover with pickups attached. It had most defiantly never been fitted to a bike but the insulation was crumbling.....

Also I would also agree about the nasty lurch with the Bosch ignition as the same ignition is fitted to early Guzzi V50's and they suffer the same step in the curve and lurch. I did learn back in the 80's from Amadeo Castellani that by varying the air gap it is possible to move the point at which step occurs slightly. If I remember rightly it was only 500rpm or so, but it was enough on a Guzzi to shift the problem away to a less annoying/noticeable place.

Regards Nigel

Bevel bob
Posts: 1042
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: rich running

Postby Bevel bob » Tue May 19, 2020 9:35 am

54 degrees sounds like a lot of advance. The Narrow case with the nominal 10 to 1 piston which has a very poor shape only uses 35-40 degrees .I would check that. Sounds like a recipy for a knocked out big end.

Scottish888
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:47 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland UK

Re: rich running

Postby Scottish888 » Thu May 21, 2020 5:19 pm

Thanks folks,

Not sure I could get this bike to 54 deg as not enough room in the adjustment slots...I just rebuilt the engine inc new big end conrod kit and rebore etc so I do not want to do anything to damage that, will stick to 37 deg. There are a few sources that say the 250 uses 54 BTDC for electronic but has anyone here tried that?
Anyone out there with a 250 mk3 with the ducati eletronica ign?
I had the ignition way retarded before and it still started and run, the timing has a performance aspect of course but I dont think it is the cause of zero power from 4500 rpm.
I think I am going to try points, it is the cheapest way to see if this is an ignition problem.
I bought and tried a brand new Mikuni, no difference, at least I can use that on another bike so I didn't mind buying that.
What componenets will I need for a points set up?
Back plate, a cam to open the points, condenser and points?

Regards


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