64 duc resto

[evil]

Hello all.....

I have a 64 ducati that I am completing. The two previous owners rebuilt the engine and painted it, It has not run since the engine rebuild and has sat mostly in living rooms. I just started the last leg of the restoration and came across this site while looking for parts (great site!).

I have a few questions and would greatly appreciate any help I can get.

I was told it was a Diana, but all the pics I see of them.... DON'T show a battery, and mine has a battery with it. It looks a bit like a 250 GT but I am not sure. the vin is duc 250 8800** (I cant remember the last couple digits) Any ideas?

The engine has a vent tube that I haven't seen on any other bikes and don't know what I am supposed to do with it. (pic below)

vent close up.JPG

The keyed switch on the headlight (from my reading) has three positions but any way I turn the switch it gives power to all four posts... is that right?

The bus in the headlight has a fuse in the center.... there is a hot (positive) wire going to one side, but the wiring diagram doesn't show anything going to the other side.... I was going to hook a ground to it but I am not sure.


Here are a few pics of the bike..... thanks again for all the help!

Ducati (7) small.JPG

64 duc 004 small.JPG

[JimF]

I can't tell if it's a Diana, which refers to a very specific model that pre-dated the Mark 3 and the Mach 1.

Folklore has made the Mach1 and the Mark3 two of the most popular narrowcase 250s, and people over-using the term "Diana" to refer to any Ducati 250 has in my estimation tarnished the name Diana. A real Diana is rarer than a Mach 1 or a Mark3. They should by rights be more valuable too, but I think again the use of the name applied randomly has taken the lustre off the true gem that a Diana is.

Before the big carb and big valves and 5-speed gearbox were put on 250 to create Ducati's race bike for the steet in 1965 called the Mach 1, the fastest Ducati 250 race bike you could get for the street was the Diana. The Diana was all about speed, and nothing else.

Here's a link to a factory drawing of a Diana:

http://www.motoinfo.it/schede-tecniche- ... cordid=389

The flyscreen in the drawing was probably optional.

The Dianas were all 4-speed if I'm not mistaken. I think it wasn't until the Mach1/Mark 3 that 5-speed boxes came along. Is yours a 4-speed?

You would seem to have some of the rare Diana bits, it looks like you have clips-ons but that tiny little tail light looks to be the very rare one put on Dianas. That taillight alone is worth a mint! The tank looks correct too.

The Dianas got a SSI27 Del'Orto.

All the narrowcase frames came with a battery tray. The battery tray does not mean your bike was fitted with a battery.

What does the headlight bucket look like? The few real Dianas I have ever seen had the Veglia tach on mount that bridged the fork caps and no speedometer in the bucket.

There are some pictures of Steve Hatfield's 100-point blue Diana on the photos page:

http://www.motoscrubs.com/Duc_Photos_CI.htm

Regardless, that is a damn handsome looking Ducati you have. Please don't cafe that bike (not that you would, but I thought I should say it) - it's too original and too rare - and oh so beautiful and perfect just as it is.


(Nice Porsche 914 too!)

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: 'evil' ...
" I have a 64 ducati that I am completing.
I was told it was a Diana, but all the pics I see of them.... DON'T show a battery, and mine has a battery with it. It looks a bit like a 250 GT but I am not sure. the vin is duc 250 8800** (I cant remember the last couple digits) "

____ Very interesting DUKE ! _ Actually, 'DM250' & any motor-number near 88000 indicates a made in late-1964 or early '65, 5-speed model.
__ We need to determine if it's really a battery-type model or not,, cuz if it is, then it should be either a 'GT' or a 'Mach-I' , (and NOT a "Diana"!) .


" The keyed switch on the headlight (from my reading) has three positions but any way I turn the switch it gives power to all four posts... is that right? "

____ Not really! ... The key-switch you've no doubt been "reading" about seems to be the 1966-type which does indeed have three separate (real) positions, but, your 1965-version is an ON/OFF-switch only, and while it seems to have four (physical) key-positions (2-ON & 2-OFF), it really just makes/breaks two SEPARATE circuits... The Main-circuit which connects power to the load-system,, and, the charging-light circuit.
__ Really ought to see a good pic of the actual switch-unit you have, in order to be sure. _ Can you provide any good pix of your "switch" and/or the electrics which it has connected within the head-lamp?


" The bus in the headlight has a fuse in the center.... there is a hot (positive) wire going to one side, but the wiring diagram doesn't show anything going to the other side.... "

____ If I'm correct about exactly which fuse you're referring to, then that particular "hot" wire which feeds it is supposed to be gray-colored (at least from the head-lamp back to the black-box under the seat), and that particular fuse should be for the 'parking-light' circuit, with the other side of that fuse being connected to a 3-position light-switch.

____ It's always exciting for me to find an old DUKE that needs to have it's model-parts worked-out for determining exactly what model of DUKE it actually is,
so hope you supply us with the added-info ASAP !


DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[evil]

To answer some questions:

Is it a four speed? It hasn't been on the road since.... maybe the early 90's? I bought it in 2001 and it has only seen the living room or a blanket. I cant run through the gears now because the engine is partially apart. So.... I don't know.

The carb is a: Del Lorto SSI 29D

Vin is: duc 250 88005

I will get some good pics of the switch next week... I forgot my good camera at home tonight (I am working at a friends shop... that is his 914 in the background).

The wiring diagram I'm using has a battery in it and "most" everything matches up. What would be a noticeble difference in the wiring if I don't need a battery?

Will I "cafe" the bike? No. It's a long story on how I got the bike but needless to say I have waited 9 years to turn a wrench on this bike and everything will stay as is. Although now I am more nervous to hear that the tail light better never get a scratch on it. The only acess I have to a mint has "patty" written on it.

Any ideas on the vent tube? there is a metal fitting coming out of the engine with a hose on it... I hate how that hose looks so I want to do something with it. Could this have been an owners alteration, and if so.... what for?

Here are pics of the taillight and headlamp. the switch is missing from the headlight because it is on a workbench where I have been staring at it.
Also... where can I get a 6v bulb for that green light?

64 duc 018 small.JPG

64 duc 017 small.JPG

Ducati (6) small.JPG

Thanks again for the help.... this bike means a lot to me and all help is really appreciated!

[Eldert]

its real easy to tell if its a 4 or 5 speeder . 5 speed DM 250 prefix lefthand crankcase , engine number righthand crankcase
with a four speed engine its the other way around so DM 250 prefix righthand case and engine number lefthandside

Eldert

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" The carb is a: Del Lorto SSI 29D "

____ If that carb is stock, then your DUKE is a 1965 5-speed Mark-3 or Mach-I. _ Since the GT-models were stock with a 24mm-DelLorto.
To make sure that someone didn't just put the 29mm-carb on a GT (to fool who-ever), check the size of the cyl.head's intake-port... 29.5mm is expected, and 26.5mm is that of a GT/Monza .


" Vin is: duc 250 88005 "

____ Do you really mean to state "duc 250", or is it actually 'DM250' ?


" I will get some good pics of the switch next week...
The wiring diagram I'm using has a battery in it and "most" everything matches up. What would be a noticeble difference in the wiring if I don't need a battery? "

____ If your key-switch is stock to the head-light and that head-light is stock to your DUKE, then you must have a Mach-I model !
__ Battery-powered models like the Mach-I have an alternator which has an output-cable (exiting the left motor-case near the kick-start lever), that contains only 2 wires,, while the 1964/65 Mark-3 models have their alt.cables with 3 wires !


" Although now I am more nervous to hear that the tail light better never get a scratch on it. "

____ I really don't think that your DUKE has the: "tiny little tail light looks to be the very rare one put on Dianas." , which Jim also stated: "That taillight alone is worth a mint!" , but you'll want to be careful with the one that you have anyhow, of course.
__ The simple little tail-light that Jim had to be referring to, does not mount to a license-plate bracket, and also does not include a brake-light light-bulb !


" Any ideas on the vent tube? there is a metal fitting coming out of the engine with a hose on it...
Could this have been an owners alteration, and if so.... what for? "

____ I didn't wish to comment on that cuz I really can't see it very well...
It may be that at one time someone had installed & used it as an oil-return (directly from the cyl.head), instead of or in addition to the stock banjo-tubing -(which is now seen [completely] reinstalled on the tower-shaft housing-tube).
__ I'd suggest replacing that hose-tube's fitting with a drain-plug.


DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[ajleone]

Here is a link to a nice wiring diagram of a full-magneto (no battery system) which were the setup for the early 250 scramblers and I believe some mark3/mach 1, courtesy of our Forum Admin !

http://www.motoscrubs.com/Ducati_Electrics/magneto.pdf

Tony

[evil]

You guys really are a wealth of information.... thanks for all your help. I know relativly nothing about them, butI have always loves ducatis and when I saw this bike I went nets over it, it has always bugged me that the guy I got it from said he "thought" it was a Diana because that was the only bike Ducati sent to the U.S.


I am doin my best to answer these questions but I will be away for some of the weekend to see Steve Martin play banjo so I will get better pics on Monday night.

.

If your key-switch is stock to the head-light and that head-light is stock to your DUKE, then you must have a Mach-I model !

The key seems to be stock along with a green light. there are two holes for them and I see no evidence of any alteration... here is a pic of the inside with the wiring buss removed, I have changed the key switch to a simiilar one that is in better shape.... as it looks like someone molested this one.

64 duc 011 small.JPG

its real easy to tell if its a 4 or 5 speeder . 5 speed DM 250 prefix lefthand crankcase

The left hand case (the brake side) has the DM 250 and the rightside (gear shift) has the 88005

__ Battery-powered models like the Mach-I have an alternator which has an output-cable (exiting the left motor-case near the kick-start lever), that contains only 2 wires,,

The alternator or stator wire comes in on the left and only has two wires.

Well.... I am not going to get my hopes up for it being a mach 1, but the info you guys have is very definitive but I did hear that the Mach 1's had a m1 AFTER the DM 250 on the engine.? is that right because mine has no such mark.

Oh well.... I am sooo looking forward to getting this bike on the road and already have plans to put it in a show at the end of september. http://www.italianmotofest.com/

I can't wait to get it all figured out.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" it has always bugged me that the guy I got it from said he "thought" it was a Diana because that was the only bike Ducati sent to the U.S. "

____ The original 'Diana' was less common than the 250-Monza but later the DIANA-name developed a reputation that everyone wanted to associate with DUKEs in general. _ The name has been over-used ever since !


" here is a pic of the inside with the wiring buss removed, "

____ First-off, it appears that you have your key-switch in the position where the 'Green' parking-light indicator is supposed to be located.
__ Anyhow, from what I can see of the wiring inside, it doesn't appear to be all original ! _ In fact, what's left inside there somewhat tends to support speculation that it's not stock Mach-I wiring . ...
Can you please provide some pix of the removed wiring-bus & any other wiring you've removed from within there?


" I have changed the key switch to a simiilar one that is in better shape.... "

____ I'd need to see both switch-types at once to get my memory reset for certain but, I recall that there were two different early/mid-'60s key-switches that were quite similar looking & used the exact-same key, and both had two separate circuits, except those two circuits were set-up differently...
The switch that was made for 160s & 1966 SCRs would actually break/open a circuit (for the ign.coil) when the key is inserted, while at the same time the other circuit would be connected/closed (for lighting-circuits).
And the other (similar) key-switch was set-up so that both of it's circuits wound be connected/closed when the key is inserted, (for charging & ignition/lighting circuits).
So one should be aware of the fact when-ever replacing such similar-looking switches with "simiilar" switches, that they don't get them mixed-up with one another.


" The alternator or stator wire comes in on the left and only has two wires. "

____ That's perfectly consistent with your DUKE-model being a 'Mach I' , and rules-out it being a Mark-3 !


" I am not going to get my hopes up for it being a mach 1, but I did hear that the Mach 1's had a m1 AFTER the DM 250 on the engine.? is that right because mine has no such mark. "

____ That the 1966 Mach-I models had 'DM250 MI' stamped on their cases is certainly true ! ...
I've never owned any Mach-I, so I can't be too sure,, but since I know that 1965 Mark-3s did not have the added 'M3' stamping, then it's fairly possible that the 1965 Mach-Is didn't get the "MI" stamping, either.
__ You should check the exact size of the intake-port, that it's 29.4 to 29.6mm (and not more closer to the common 28.5mm figure!), as the larger port-size will confirm that the cyl.head has the large-valves, and also help confirm that your DUKE is in fact indeed a 1965 'Mach-I' (and possibly the 5th such model made?) !

____ ( Please note that I'm 'DCT-Bob' and while I'm sure that everyone else here means to HELP you, any other offered info which tends to stray non-coheringly (or even oppositionally) in non-agreement with any information which I've stated for you in my postings here within this thread, is unfortunately misinformation in relation to your particular-case presented here within this same thread.
As you can be very CERTAIN that MY info presented here is in fact actual-FACT (and not just anyone's speculation) ! - (Unless I've indicated otherwise.) _ And I always intend to state what I KNOW to be fact,, or else-wise, I stay pretty-much uninvolved. )


MACH1-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[ajleone]

Is there a regulator module under the seat ? If not, then this bike is setup as a full magneto. The other thing to check is if the coil has a green label, which means it is the magneto coil, the red label would be for a battery coil. The magneto system grounds the coil when the key is out and when the key is inserted, one of the wires from the stator goes directly to the coil, without a short to ground.
Tony