What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

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ozzie450
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:08 pm

What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby ozzie450 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:25 am

Hi, I am putting together a 450 Shotgun I got in boxes. Can someone please advise me what is the best charging system and ignition system to put in the bike. Currently it has a standard 6 volt charging system and a points ingnition. Cheers for now.

Rossguzzi
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby Rossguzzi » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:07 am

Watching !
6 Ducati`s, 6 Guzzi`s, 2 Aprilia`s, 4 Morini`s, 2 Montessa`s and a bunch of other stuff

CanuckDuc
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:35 pm

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby CanuckDuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:15 pm

I fitted the Electrex ignition & charging kit from Lacey last spring. While this pertains to a wide case 250 (uses same components), I found the fitment & quality of the parts very good. It performed flawlessly for over 4000km's in a relatively higher state of tuned engine this past season. I immediately noticed an improved idle quality from the previous 12V points setup. Nice to have a powerful H-4 lighting for safety as well. I have no direct experience on the application to a 450, but I would highly recommend considering this kit.

HMBAtrail
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:07 am
Location: Indpls, IN

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby HMBAtrail » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:57 pm

In my 450 I use the Electrex STK-164 kit. In my 350 race bike I use the Electrex STK-168D-HT2. Both perform flawlessly and I've no complaints. On the race ignition you have 9 different advance curves, which did come in handy on the dyno. They aren't cheap and many folks will say the factory Ducati electronic ignition works just fine. But having a 12v system that doesn't require a battery to fire the coils means I can run a small 4 cell li-ion battery that just handles the duty of head light and tail light. Both of which I've converted to LED so the draw is exceedingly low.

ducwiz
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 12:52 pm
Location: near Frankfurt, Germany

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby ducwiz » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:19 am

What means "best" for you? Best value for money, best performance, best low-budget solution?

Imho, if you do not need a powerful H4 front light or intend to retrofit an LED into your headlamp, you can keep the Ducati 90Watt alternator, but should convert it by a cheap chinese R-R to 12 Volt http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2894.
The Electrex systems mentioned afore seem to be reliable and efficient, but I have no experience.
Raod&Race/AU offer a complete conversion kit http://www.motoscrubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2882&p=21543#p21477.
The german Powerdynamo company recently closed their business, but now VAPE (the czech mfg. of their components) took over. They offer a 150Watt alternator with R-R https://www.vape.eu/en/alternator-ducati-250-450-bigger-engine-orig-rotor-129mm. So, you can keep your old ignition system, or go or some electronic solution. I do not recommend the VAPE combined alternator/CDI system, as it's known for intense backfiring during kick-starting. In the meantime VAPE doen't offer it for the 450 anymore, maybe due to complaints of injured ankle joints or harmstrings ... Second disadvantage: the Ign. pickup is mouted an the alternator stator plate, inside the primary drive and behind the alternator flywheel. This is very inconvenient as you have to dismantle primary gears, clutch and alt. rotor, when you need to adjust yor ignition timing.
You can also keep the points and mechanical AAU, and unburden the points by an electronic ignition amplifier like this one https://gammatronixltd.com/epages/bae94c71-c5b6-4572-89a1-e89006e78fbe.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/bae94c71-c5b6-4572-89a1-e89006e78fbe/Products/%22POWER-DRIVER%2012v%22. This solution omits the capacitor, which is prone to failure, especially when it is not NOS.
If you want to discard points, capacitor and AAU you can choose between http://www.helotronik.de/kontaktlose.htm (german only, english translation via google https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.helotronik.de/kontaktlose.htm&xid=17259,15700021,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271,15700283&usg=ALkJrhiy5oXe-BFeyMgJZvUmdN19eH4PNg), Pazon http://www.pazon.com/ or Sachse MHP (imho best but the most expensive) https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-12-12v-for-ducati-250-450.html.

cheers Hans

Helotronik pick-up:
Image

DuranMendoza
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 12:47 am

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby DuranMendoza » Thu May 28, 2020 10:41 pm

Hi everyone, new to the group, and rather than post a new thread I thought I would ask and keep this one going.

I have a 1969 Ducati 450 SCR that I am just trying to put a few modern touches on while keeping it as original as I can. I am looking to do a complete rewiring of the bike at some point, and upgrade to a 12v system. A couple of questions.

1. Would you recommend going with a full overhaul such as this:
https://www.laceyducati.com/ducati-part ... psfs0uj0o7
Or would you recommend just updating the (stator/alternator) and keeping the points and coil system such as this:
https://www.laceyducati.com/ducati-part ... psfs0uj0o7

2.Are there any issues with the above giving large kickback when trying to start the bike?

3. While I know it isn't standard, I was looking to use a 12v lithium battery to save some space. Do you know if it possible to use the above system without overcharging the lithium battery or avoiding issues with it over charging? Just looking to use a lithium to save some space in the battery tray and make a small strap.

While I know it might be nice to keep the 6v, I have been out on some rides and some wires in the headlight bucket have come loose killing the bike. Had to re-connect things to get things back up and started, which is why I figured I would do a rewire. There is a non-standard Aprilia headlight on the bike, which is why I was considering to change that out when doing a rewire, and was wondering if anyone could help me identify the right headlight bucket / wiring diagram for this bike to replace. I have seen quite a few different wiring diagrams with different headlight buckets (keys, no keys, lever, etc.)?

Thank you for all the help in advance, and any guidance on keeping the bike standard while maybe just upgrading the electrical would be of huge help.

Thanks,
Duran
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Stratos23
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:25 am
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Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby Stratos23 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 am

How is the conversion coming along OZZIE450?

I thought I'd chip in here because I had exactly the same dilemma... a Silver Shotgun in bits with a mangled alternator and wiring in pieces. I'm based in NZ so you're very much on your own when it comes to singles (thank god for Motoscrubs!).

These bikes are famous for being reluctant to start so went for a wholesale solution, opting for the Electrex STK-164 setup - the whole 12V charging system and a new loom to suit. Everything went together nicely but had some real issues getting it started. Rebuilt the head and replaced the VHB carb with a brand new PHBH30 which which was collectively a massive improvement once the jetting was sorted.

HOWEVER starting is still a real issue. Once it's going, it's all good, but if it kicks back, it can be so violent that it's bitten me on a few occasions (even shattered the lever!). It has MASSES of compression so roll starting is impossible - it's even difficult to get the wheel to spin on the race-roller starter! I have a '74 250 here which starts flawlessly first kick every time, and that's running orig Ducati electronic ignition. I've tried all sorts - varying the timing, fitting a big Dyna coil and on and on... Falling into the 'too hard and scary basket' it's hardly been ridden over the last 18 months (admittedly my attention has been on other bikes) but I'd like to sort it out once and for all before summer.

Having some time away from it, my current hypothesis is this: I'm sure the Electrex Ignition is a 'wasted spark' system (which is why you can't get the rotor 180º out) meaning that the spark also fires on the exhaust stroke. Surely then, if you kick the bike from just after TDC on the compression stroke, there is the potential for the wasted spark to cause a backfire on the compression of the exhaust stroke?

DuranMendozer this why you asked if there were any issues of large kickback during starting?

Anyone else had issues with this setup and or a fix? Somehow get the ignition to fire only on the compression stroke? A mod to the rotor?

Thanks,
Greg

Rhys
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:57 pm

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby Rhys » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:49 am

Stratos23 wrote:How is the conversion coming along OZZIE450?
HOWEVER starting is still a real issue. Once it's going, it's all good, but if it kicks back, it can be so violent that it's bitten me on a few occasions (even shattered the lever!).


Hi All,

Here I thought I was the only one having difficulty with the Electrex system. After finding my stupid installation error, the engine started. That one time.

Every time after that, it is a fight. Granted, I don't get much time to work on this bike, and I am most definitely not a Duke Single master mechanic, so some things are my fault.

My experience is not like what I'd read; the one-kick start. Mine acts like Stratos23's; it kicks HARD. I've run out of timing, and have pondered adjusting the crank gear to compensate. Even just bringing it up slowly to TDC brings a kick.

My next easy adjustment plan of attack, is to hold the kill switch until I get it up and over TDC to try. But, as I mentioned, work is all-encompassing at the moment, and I can't get back to it.

Cheers!
Rhys

Samurai
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:53 pm
Location: Somerset, U.K.

Re: What is the best charging and ignition system for wide case 450

Postby Samurai » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:44 pm

I fitted an Electrexworld full system to my 175TS a couple of years ago and now the bike is a first time starter (well, most of the time anyway).

It all fitted straightforwardly and providing you set up the static timing correctly to start with I wouldn't anticipate any issues. Best upgrade I made to the bike overall, that and a modern carb!

Jason.


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