Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

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miken5678
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Jax

Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby miken5678 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:13 am

http://www.ducatiscrambler.com/2006/elettrici.htm

http://www.techeng.force9.co.uk/info~mk5~6.htm

http://www.motorcycle-ignition.com/moto ... ei_kit.htm

http://www.mynode.com/2wheel/?t=simple. ... index.html

http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/systems/ ... 47main.htm

http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ZDG3/du ... /index.htm

http://www.roadandrace.com.au/alternato ... rsions.htm 12v only no ignition

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/laverda/it ... age001.jpg

http://www.hpi.be/kits.htm (multiple kits 6v 12v total loss etc)


I am posing what I have found so far in terms of 12v conversion and ignition systems and wanted to know if anyone is using any of the above or can comment on what they have seen pros/cons of what is shown and any comments or further links to be provided.

ccambern
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:18 pm

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby ccambern » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:30 am

For what it's worth, here's what I did:

1. Modified 2-wire alternator by disconnecting internal ground leads and changing output leads to new wires (free).
2. Rectify/regulate with a unit from a Honda CX500 (about $60 on ebay). This is a fairly common mod for old bikes and it's easy to find the wiring diagram.
3. Installed 12V gelcell from a security system (available at Radioshack for about $60).
4. Converted lights and horn to 12V ($20-30).

System runs like a champ. I run the high beams all the time. The bat stays charged without issue and the lights never dim, even under max load at idle. The regulator puts out about 12.8 VDC above 2000 RPM. Bat stays cool all the time. Reg gets warm but not really hot (I have it mounted in the air under the seat).

I am still using points, but ended up with VW points and condensor ($12 at the auto parts store). I had to do a little grinding to the points assembly to make them fit, but no big deal. I may convert to Pertronix at some time down the road, depending on how fast these wear, but they're working fine for now. Coil is a universal unit I bought through Old Bike Barn ($25). It fits the original bracket and doesn't need a ballast resistor.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:30 am

" Modified 2-wire alternator by disconnecting internal ground leads and changing output leads to new wires
Rectify/regulate with a unit from a Honda CX500 This is a fairly common mod
Reg gets warm but not really hot "

____ This is indeed (unfortunately) pretty much the most common type of electrical-system mod done on n-c DUKEs with the 2-wire (& w-c 3-wire) alternator.
It certainly provides a better overall system than the stock-system does ! _ But unlike the stock-system it cares to do nothing about preventing waste.
Since systems like this full-wave rectify the alternator's entire output at all times, they thus have a hard time dealing with all the excess power made by the alternator at high-RPM, while the lights are off ! _ The Jap-bike makers were smart enough to realize this situation and would take proper steps to avoid overworking the related components of the power-system, by not tapping into the full-power of the alternator whenever the lights are not on... They (like Ducati) would produce their alternators with more than one power-winding but, (unlike Ducati), they would not make both windings equal in output. - Their primary output would be only about 1/3rd of the alternator's full-output, and the rest would not be made available until the lights were turned-on, thus saving otherwise wasted energy and also prevent over-burdening of the related electrical-components.
__ So in my enlightened opinion, I think it's a big waste to not take advantage of the fact that Ducati has conveniently divided their alternator's power-winding into two separate parts, and wire it up same as if it only had just one continuous power-winding,, as systems like this one does.
____ If you're someone who prefers near absolute simplicity, then you'll prefer to copy this unthoughtful commoner type of power-system.
And if ya don't already understand how it's wired-up, then just ask & I'll tell ya. _ But I'm not going to do it otherwise, as I don't wish to promote it ! - (In case ya haven't already suspected that.)
__ I suggest that everyone who replaces the original pair of deteriorating alt.wires with new wires, (for their 6-pole/4-coil 60-watt alternator), much consider the addition of an extra pair of wires (to/from those otherwise grounded alt.winding lead-ends), so that one could possibly choose to pick any kind of power-system wiring set-up.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

miken5678
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Jax

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby miken5678 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:51 pm

I guess another question after looking at some of these is the method they use to choose different timing per rpm point settings. Several seem to be quite limited with a couple choices but what insures they meet your sitatuion correctly.. Just seems when you take into affect different compression a possible change in stroke if you go that route and different cam shaft timing/valve size increase that they would all play a considerable roll that would be outside what some of these fixed/multi choice timing options that the ignition systems provide.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Ignition advance curves

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:21 pm

"I guess another question after looking at some of these is the method they use to choose different timing per rpm point settings. Several seem to be quite limited with a couple choices but what insures they meet your sitatuion correctly.. "

____ At first, all the different choices for the advance-curve of the ignition-spark's timing before TDC in relation to RPM, leaves one wondering which curve would work best for their particular engine,, and picking the best curve would certainly require some dyno.testing !
Now I'm no expert in this field but do understand it well enough that I think I can offer my opinion on this issue, (leaving any of you out there to disagree if you wish!)...
__ First, if we actually had to be concerned about the exact ignition-timing from idle to red-line, then this whole situation would require some very extensive study ! _ But that's really not the case at all, as the ign.advance is only from idle to about 3000-RPM.
And regardless of what gasoline-powered engine you have and what optional parts it happens to employ, the main-concern of exactly when the spark should ignite the gasoline type fuel, is how fast the gas-&-air mixture burns. _ And I believe that nothing else really matters, except possibly relatively large changes in compression-ratio and large differences in bore-dia.size.
__ So therefore it seems there's not really any big deal about what ign.curve is used for that small low-RPM window where the change of ignition-timing occurs !
Early Ducati Mark-3 models came with no ign.advacer at all, with the ign.timing set at full-advance at all times ! - (Ducati ended-up adding an 18-degree advancer-unit so as to help keep buyers from getting their feet hurt by the more likely to occur & stronger kick-backs, without the retarded ign.timing.)
It therefore seems to me that the only really needed reason for any ign.timing that's not at full-advance, is for the purpose of getting an engine started-up. _ Thus my choice for ignition-timing on my DUKE would be 1-degree ATDC for starting-RPM & full-advance once running (at 2-grand). - Simple! -(No advance-curve!) _ I might be loosing-out on a quarter of a horse-power somewhere below 3000-RPM with that choice but, no one can say for sure without a dyno.test.
____ I hope this hash-out reduces the concern ya have about exact ignition advance-curves being of any real concern.
And if there's any REAL -( bona-fide/bonified) expert on why any actual ign.advance 'CURVE' is really needed for any useful purpose at all, then please come forward with any such use what-so-ever for it ! - (I'm betting this will never happen!)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

ccambern
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:18 pm

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby ccambern » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:37 am

Bob,

That's the first time I've been called an "unthoughtful commoner"... the reality is that I didn't care to build a system that would generate less power for a "lights-off" condition, because I wanted to run my lights all the time for safety. My system seems very well balanced with the lights on, and that's exactly what I wanted. I considered building a system like the one you are suggesting but concluded it would be a waste of effort, given my desire to keep the lights on all the time. I'm simply trying to offer a simple, inexpensive solution to a problem that most everyone seems to be worried about.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:42 am

" That's the first time I've been called an "unthoughtful commoner"... "

____ Dear ccambern, did you really think that I would actually mean any at all to indicate anything (positively or negatively) concerning your own personal-self ? _ Cuz if you did, you've certainly misunderstood my wording ! ... I did NOT state: '' unthoughtful-commoner's '' ! _ If I had, THEN you could've POSSIBLY allowed yourself to think that you yourself could have been considered to be part of a grouping like you seem to have (incorrectly!) interpreted my two words to mean. _ BUT I was not referring to any 'group' what-so-ever at all !! ...
If you were to re-read that part (which I had written with those words within), along with the correct-understanding that I had only meant to indicate that the system-type in question is (indeed) an "unthoughtful" one, and also that it's indeed more-common -("commoner"), then you should PROPERLY understand my intended drift.
Sorry that my wording had failed for you !
____ Indeed I myself have installed such simplistic-systems on DUKEs not of my own, as when ya work for a shop, ya have to do things simply & fastly as possible, (as anyone who's worked for a cycle-shop certainly realizes) !
That more-common system is indeed relatively simple (& unthoughtful!), and does it's job quite well enough (if one doesn't really much care about green-thinking).
And for those who need to keep their lights on at all times, there's certainly really no good-reason to wire-up things any differently !
So it seems for you (& no doubt others), that you've done the right & logical thing to do ! _ Cuz why in such case should any common-logic thinking person ever bother to wire-up light-switches and extra-wiring etc., when they think that they won't ever use any of it?!
So you see, I'm not down-on-that at all !
__ However if I were in a state that demanded lights-on at all times, I'd still do the wiring as I wish it done for myself, as for one thing, I'd never be absolutely sure that I have a battery that's always going to be sufficiently charged to run lights & ignition at all times, and may therefore need to run a distance with light-off. - (As I'm not one to stay stranded somewhere because of a semi-silly state-law.)

____ Enough for now.


Good-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

miken5678
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Jax

Re: Ignition advance curves

Postby miken5678 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:17 am

[quote="DewCatTea-Bob"]"I guess another question after looking at some of these is the method they use to choose different timing per rpm point settings. Several seem to be quite limited with a couple choices but what insures they meet your sitatuion correctly.. "

____ At first, all the different choices for the advance-curve of the ignition-spark's timing before TDC in relation to RPM, leaves one wondering which curve would work best for their particular engine,, and picking the best curve would certainly require some dyno.testing !
Now I'm no expert in this field but do understand it well enough that I think I can offer my opinion on this issue, (leaving any of you out there to disagree if you wish!)...
__ First, if we actually had to be concerned about the exact ignition-timing from idle to red-line, then this whole situation would require some very extensive study ! _ But that's really not the case at all, as the ign.advance is only from idle to about 3000-RPM.


""Incorrect, while nobody is looking for exact ignition timing the gains both under partial and full load are more than beneficial especially to a smaller displacement motors where most of the power is created in the upper rpm range. If you want to consider the flow limitations of the heads of the bevel motors then you can rate them below par in terms of volumetric efficency to which correct or differing timing points can also have a great impact in the mid rpm range.

And regardless of what gasoline-powered engine you have and what optional parts it happens to employ, the main-concern of exactly when the spark should ignite the gasoline type fuel, is how fast the gas-&-air mixture burns. _ And I believe that nothing else really matters, except possibly relatively large changes in compression-ratio and large differences in bore-dia.size.

""While I can partially agree with you here in regards to burn rate and propagation of the flame front, there is much more to take into consideration before making such a broad statement. Many more factors than just compression and bore size change can affect timing limitations throughout the engine operating range.

__ So therefore it seems there's not really any big deal about what ign.curve is used for that small low-RPM window where the change of ignition-timing occurs !
Early Ducati Mark-3 models came with no ign.advacer at all, with the ign.timing set at full-advance at all times ! - (Ducati ended-up adding an 18-degree advancer-unit so as to help keep buyers from getting their feet hurt by the more likely to occur & stronger kick-backs, without the retarded ign.timing.)
It therefore seems to me that the only really needed reason for any ign.timing that's not at full-advance, is for the purpose of getting an engine started-up. _ Thus my choice for ignition-timing on my DUKE would be 1-degree ATDC for starting-RPM & full-advance once running (at 2-grand). - Simple! -(No advance-curve!) _ I might be loosing-out on a quarter of a horse-power somewhere below 3000-RPM with that choice but, no one can say for sure without a dyno.test.

"I have to disagree again. As we have seen with the designs of the ducati motors given the time period and advances in current motor advancements it would be pretty biased to assume because ducati choose this route xx years ago that it withstands the test of time and is the most beneficial knowing what we know today. Looking at one of your prior posts given Ducati’s choice of cam shafts whether financially driven or not is a great example. But I digress it is far from the original point that was intended from the start of this thread. Not every motor given different variables in both internal(setup) and fuel type being used will benefit the most from a full advance of the timing and improvements can still be had even by simply advancing the unit and driving the bike until pre-ignition/detonation is found either off/on the dyno.

____ I hope this hash-out reduces the concern ya have about exact ignition advance-curves being of any real concern.
And if there's any REAL -( bona-fide/bonified) expert on why any actual ign.advance 'CURVE' is really needed for any useful purpose at all, then please come forward with any such use what-so-ever for it ! - (I'm betting this will never happen!)

""Again, I appreciate your input however I do not appreciate your tone/response in this last paragraph. The intentions were to answer questions and gather information from users that have either used the setups above or could identify more through word of mouth, personal usage or someone they know currently using the setup to give at least myself or other readers firsthand experience if they wanted to so chose this route. Not imply within the thread that only some expert would be the only one to carry the weight necessary to continue the discussion in regards to your timing response. While I greatly appreciate your knowledge and information, none of us are "experts" and the point of these threads and website in general is to leave them open to discussion and input and not come away with a last statement so close minded where only a "And if there's any REAL -( bona-fide/bonified) " expert can continue.
Last edited by miken5678 on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

miken5678
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Jax

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby miken5678 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:21 am

ccambern wrote:For what it's worth, here's what I did:

1. Modified 2-wire alternator by disconnecting internal ground leads and changing output leads to new wires (free).
2. Rectify/regulate with a unit from a Honda CX500 (about $60 on ebay). This is a fairly common mod for old bikes and it's easy to find the wiring diagram.
3. Installed 12V gelcell from a security system (available at Radioshack for about $60).
4. Converted lights and horn to 12V ($20-30).

System runs like a champ. I run the high beams all the time. The bat stays charged without issue and the lights never dim, even under max load at idle. The regulator puts out about 12.8 VDC above 2000 RPM. Bat stays cool all the time. Reg gets warm but not really hot (I have it mounted in the air under the seat).

I am still using points, but ended up with VW points and condensor ($12 at the auto parts store). I had to do a little grinding to the points assembly to make them fit, but no big deal. I may convert to Pertronix at some time down the road, depending on how fast these wear, but they're working fine for now. Coil is a universal unit I bought through Old Bike Barn ($25). It fits the original bracket and doesn't need a ballast resistor.



Curious what you are using for a 12v light source and I assume you notice a huge difference in light output however if you have managed to be out in the evening or night time how is the output around idle and within the lower rpm range?

miken5678
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Jax

Re: Ignition and Charging System Upgrades

Postby miken5678 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:43 am

So, back on to the original topic of the thread.. if anyone has used the above setups or can recommend/add to the list to see whats out there feel free to comment. I am more than interested in seeing what is out there before I plop down some money. I have requested more information from most of these sources in relation to timing setups and any further information and will post it as it is received.


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