First Ducati

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Roberto
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:13 pm

Re: First Ducati

Postby Roberto » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:44 pm

Hello,
One side of engine is stamped DM 350, the other side is stamped 06164.
There are two wires coming out of the engine case. Looks like I've got a 450 frame and a 350 engine, does that make a difference or is it common. The kick starter turns engine over smooth. I'm missing the gear shifter, front forks, triple tree, both wheels, engine cyl and head. I would prefer to end up with a 450.
Roberto

graeme
Posts: 938
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:00 am
Location: Tasmania Australia

Re: First Ducati

Postby graeme » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:59 pm

As far as I'm aware the 450 frame you have should have a 450 engine.
But I've heard of some unusual matches coming from the Ducati factory back in the '70's

The 350 is possibly a better "balanced" engine than the 450's as they don't vibrate as much and rev higher.
(balanced as in better design rather than actual crank balance)

If you aren't looking for complete originality you could chase forks and wheels off something else.
450 motors come up on craiglist and ebay but do command more $ than the 250 and 350.

350 engine bits are around and a 350 engine is a nice engine.

Good luck

Graeme

el_guru
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:10 am

Re: First Ducati

Postby el_guru » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:21 am

Hi Roberto,

I live in NJ and have a really nice set of original 350 scrambler forks and triple trees etc. Also wheels that I can sell.
I’m presently in Sydney working for a few days, will be back in NJ later next week if you are interested.?

ATB Andrew.

Ventodue
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: First Ducati

Postby Ventodue » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:36 am

graeme wrote: Does your book show the serial numbers for 450 scramblers in 1975?

Frame DGM 7026-OM DM 450S*467798
Engine DM450 462321

Unfortunately not, Graeme. The only author I know who tries to give serial numbers is Ian Falloon. At least Ian has actually studied the original factory records, having been the person who discovered many of them hidden away in the factory in the first place!

So, looking at the production period 1973-1974/5, and using Ian's info, what we can say is:
Frame numbers: started at 467000.
Using Orio's production figures (which I suspect he may have 'lifted' from Ian, anyways :)), 1,809 bikes were made during this period. This would mean that the latest frame number can be no lower than 468809.

As for your bike, at 467798, it should be a 1973 build, 1,336 bikes having been turned out in that year. However, it may have been only shipped/sold/registered in 1974.

Engine numbers: started at 460500.
However, it would appear some of these engines, i.e. with just the DM450 prefix, went into Mark 3s (RTs even?). This might explain why your engine number is, to all appearances, 1,821 'down the line'.

HTH :) !
Last edited by Ventodue on Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ventodue
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: First Ducati

Postby Ventodue » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:52 am

Roberto wrote:Hello,
One side of engine is stamped DM 350, the other side is stamped 06164. There are two wires coming out of the engine case.

The story gets even stranger ...

Engine number 06164 should be an early 350, i.e. from 1968. But in that case, it wouldn't have had electronic ignition. In which case, there should be only one, 3-core cable coming off the alternator :? .

Hmmm ... But as I said earlier, your frame was previously paired with 450cc engine number 462740. So who knows what's gone on ...

P.s But at least the engine now age-matches the tank ... 8-)

Ventodue
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: First Ducati

Postby Ventodue » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:13 pm

I should correct myself a little as regards the color schemes of the 450s. Re-reading the books last night ...

Series 1 (i.e. up to 1973) : Yellow with tank and mudguard stripes in black.

Series 2, 1973 on: Black with yellow stripes (see below). Blue metallic with gold stripes (see Massimo Clarke's book). Rusty Red ("rosso rugine"), possibly with black stripes (same as 250/350 model, I guess). And Green(!), don't know color of stripes.

Image

ducwiz
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 12:52 pm
Location: near Frankfurt, Germany

Re: First Ducati

Postby ducwiz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:01 pm

ventodue:
Engine number 06164 should be an early 350, i.e. from 1968. But in that case, it wouldn't have had electronic ignition. In which case, there should be only one, 3-core cable coming off the alternator

I just copied one of roberto's fotos and magnified the area around the cable feedthrough. This proved that it is indeed a very early 350 SCR engine. But - it's evident that somebody mounted a newer 2wire alternator and sqeezed or crushed the 2 wires through the single hole in the black bakelite 1wire feedthrough.
The newer engine has a larger bronze or brass feedthrough, with a hexagon head and 2 holes in the rubber grommet. Imho, the newer cases were cast in a unified mould, featuring oval bosses under the heads of the transverse bolts below the lower cylinder end face, amongst other things. This made it possible to use the same raw casting for all engine types. The older ones appeared in versions for 250/350, but 450 separated, always with round bosses under the screw heads. The reason for different cases: the distance between the drill-holes for the transverse bolts is larger for the 450. The oval bosses could be bored for both distances.
Btw, different center gaskets are needed, not only for the different engine capacities, but also for older or newer case version.

cheers Hans

Roberto
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:13 pm

Re: First Ducati

Postby Roberto » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:05 pm

Now I know what engine and frame I have. Just like my dog, a lot mixed parts; that's okay, bike or dog doesn't have to be pure bred for me to love. But are there major differences in 350 and 450 frames and engines, it seems like a lot of parts are similar on both. It may be that the ignition was changed at some point. Will 250/350 axles, hubs, forks etc bolt up on 450 frame.
20171020_183323.jpg

Roberto
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ducwiz
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 12:52 pm
Location: near Frankfurt, Germany

Re: First Ducati

Postby ducwiz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:12 pm

You can fit any engine to any frame, despite the 450 frame is slightly different; it is reinforced with long gussets welded along the top tube and both sides, as is yours.
Many other parts are different, mainly in the engine. Also, the 450 kickstart lever is longer than the others, and the rear sprocket carrier contains 2 ball bearings instead of only one. The 450 chain is 5/8x3/8, the 250/350 1/2x5/16.
I recommend to study the parts list. You can find one for download at http://www.luke3d.org/bmw/manuali_ducati.htm.

cheers Hans

Ventodue
Posts: 952
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: First Ducati

Postby Ventodue » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:34 am

ducwiz wrote: I just copied one of roberto's fotos ...

Excellent stuff, Hans. Thanks.

Btw, here are photos of the two bosses, taken from Massimo Clarke's, Ducati Scrambler Desmo e Mark 3:

Image


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