Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

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tr197
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Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby tr197 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:26 pm

Newbie here, hope someone can help me. I have a 1964 250 scrambler that needs a new spring that pushes on the gear that turns the crank. It is kind of shaped like a Y and I was given a part # of 0400.07.183, checking with a Ducati dealer they called it a leaf spring ? Could that be it ? any help would be great, thanks.

tr197
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Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby tr197 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:27 pm

O.K. someone just told me it's called a spring plate, :?

JimF
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby JimF » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:52 am

Not to high-jack this post, but there is an eBay seller in Spain that has what seems to be a bunch of kick-start return springs for sale (I am thinking they are 0603.07.010.)

Item number: 150378945735

I couldn't find the part number you listed in my parts book after a brief search, but its not like I would have one anyway. Maybe Henry Hogben in Cananda, or Road and Race in Australia.

Jim

captpaul
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby captpaul » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:38 am

I just looked in my parts book and your #0400.07.183 is the y shaped spring you need.

DewCatTea-Bob
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:24 am

"I have a 1964 250 scrambler that needs a new spring that pushes on the gear"

____WELL NEW FRIEND, it seems that you have not read through this fairly new web-site completely before posting on this subject... Otherwise you might now be asking me for further details, after reading my first posting on this subject, concerning Jim's 250 Mach-1 kickstart-lever slippage problem.
__ The part which you refer to is indeed called a "Leaf Spring" ! ... (That type of spring was used until 1966, when it was replaced with a coil-spring & "Spring-Plate" [bracket].)
There should be 2 such forked spring units installed.
That leaf-spring set-up was one of Ducati's original poor designs, and it really took them too long to address the common-problem of those springs getting bent backward during exceptional kick-backs!
All narrow-case DUKEs used that poor set-up until Ducati finally came-out with the coil-spring set-up, which was used until they replaced the narrow-case models with their newer wide-case models, starting in 1967.
__ I'm afraid to inform you that simply replacing the bent springs with new units will only fix the problem until the next time that the Scrambler-engine suffers another extra-bad kick-back!
The narrow-case Scrambler & Mark-3 models suffer from this problem more so, due to the fact that the static ignition-timing is more advanced for those non-battery-ignition models!
So with your older n-c SCR model, you should do something besides just refreshing the leaf-springs!
If you look closely at your pair of springs, you ought to see that they have been bent backward somewhat, and thus have lost some if not all of their ability to place sufficient pressure on their kicker-gear (which tries to turn 1st-gear when engaged).
__ One of the first ways which I used to repair the otherwise constantly reoccurring problem, was to make a 'L' shaped piece of steel, sized as long as from the bottom-tip of the leaf-spring, up to the fork of the 'Y', so as to overlay & back-up the area of the spring that gets bent, and thus keep the springs from getting bent backward so far as they do during the extra-bad kick-backs (which always happen sooner or later) !
That home-made piece should be at least as thick as the leaf-spring's retaining-bolt's washer. - (That original washer could then be discarded, plus, you ought to replace that original bolt with a slightly longer one.)
__ Unless your springs are rusted, you need not replace them... simply bend them back into original shape. _ Then they should work just as good as new units.
If you don't know what their original shape should be,, then to check that they are correctly shaped, just place each spring on it's back-side onto something that's quite flat. Then push down on the spot where the bolt-hole is.
From that point (near around where the hole is), the spring's forked-end should gradually curve away from the flat-surface (which it's being pressed-down against). _ If not quite so, then, while keeping the spring's mounting end pressed against the flat-surface,, bend the misshaped spring's forked end away from the flat-surface, until it's forked end remains rebent, at about 15 to 20mm above the flat-surface (which the spring's mounting end is being pressed against). _ That should make the leaf-spring useful again.
__ Before asking for any further details, please read my other post concerning this subject.

DUCATIly,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

tr197
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby tr197 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:21 am

Thanks for the reply's everyone. Bob, under Jim's Mach 1 post I did ask you for any info you had on replacing the leaf spring with the coil spring & bracket. Can I get these parts through you or are they something I can fabricate myself ? I got it working again by re-bending both of the leaf springs but as you said it only lasted a little while. If you can help me in anyway with the coil spring & bracket set up that would be great or I will do as you suggest with the L bracket. Thanks again everyone.

DewCatTea-Bob
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:05 am

" Bob, under Jim's Mach 1 post I did ask you for any info you had on replacing the leaf spring with the coil spring & bracket. "

____ FUNNY, I never noticed any other posting on this kick-starter modification subject, (even by anyone else), yet!
__ Sorry, I'm no longer a dealer with a lot of NOS-parts for sale. _ But here's some further info on the subject.....
As you know my fellow DUKE wrencher, there's just one boss-mount with a short 6mm bolt to retain the leaf-springs! ... While with the newer (narrow-case) coil-spring set-up, that same (lower) mounting-boss is used to hold the lower-arm of the coil-spring's retainer-bracket, plus, that bracket was given an added upper mounting-boss for the bracket's upper-arm.
Your older motor-case doesn't have that upper-mounting point! _ (And it's really needed in order to assure that the bracket & the coil-spring stay in their place.) _ There's at least a couple of ways to deal with this issue...
_ You could make your own upper boss-mount by drilling & tapping a hole near that area in the case, and then use a spacer to act as a boss-mount for the bracket's upper-arm.
_ OR, you could cut-off the upper-arm of the bracket and rely on just it's lower-arm to hold itself (the coil-spring's bracket) in place. _ BUT, then the bracket ought to be further cared for.....
__ If it hasn't been lost, you should've seen a L-shaped lock-tab which is meant to keep the retaining-bolt's head held from turning loose... The lock-tab has two tips,, one to bend against the bolt's head, and another (longer one) to bend around the boss-mount. ...
Well in that same fashion,, you could bend a slightly larger strip of scrap-metal into a 'U' or 'J' shape (with a hole through it's bottom for the 6mm bolt), that would fit snugly over that lower-arm in such a way so as to work just as the lock-tab's longer-tip does,, thus doing for the bracket, what the lock-tab does for the bolt... That is: keep the bracket bracketed in place, against the mounting-boss. - (Since in this case, the bracket doesn't have an upper-arm that's bolted-down, to keep it from moving around.).
____ Now if you can't get your hands on the new-type kick-starter coil-spring & bracket set-up,, then perhaps you could get a weaker (as apposed to stronger than stock) coil-spring (as it need not be very strong!), and make your own (single arm) bracket to hold the spring in place.
__ I've been confronted with this issue probably no less than 50 times, and solved it for myself probably about 10 different ways.
When I worked at Ducati-shops back at the time, I performed only the authorized repair-job, which I believe was to replace the bent pair, with 3 new leaf-springs.
I believe starting in 1965, there became an update kit made for special-order, which was a coil-spring and it's holder of some sort, for fixing this common kick-starter problem. But that kit was always on back-order!
I recall actually meeting a fella in the late '60s, from another Ducati shop who claimed that they had actually received & installed that special kit, but he was not able to describe it very well to me.
__ If you wish further details, or would like to know more about any of the other ways to improve your set-up, then please ask for more! _ As I'm likely the only person you'll find with as much experience with this (or most any other DUKE issue).

____ I'm sorry to have written this above info in such a way that only someone who has confronted this matter themselves, can understand. _ But hopefully only those of us who care about this issue, have bothered to read this far!

DukeCheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Desmoto-M.3
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby Desmoto-M.3 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:44 am

I used to ride a 1965 Monza which also had that problem with the kickstart lever snapping loose whenever I didn't lean it over far enough to the right.
I discovered that leaning it to the right would always help because the lever would never engage at all while leaning on the sidestand, but would sometimes work okay while standing upright, still parked on the centerstand.
My Dad blamed me for causing that problem with the kicklever because he always told me that I was too afraid to follow thru with a good hard kick on the starter lever.
I remember helping to fix that problem by following instructions that were given to my Dad by a tech adviser who was also a member of the Ducati International Owner's Club, and that guy told my Dad it was a regular problem for all models before 1966.
Our Monza was the only Ducati my Dad ever had that old, so he didn't know about any such kickstarter problem before.
I think we replaced the weak leafsprings with 3 new ones and also added some piece of extra metal over the top of the springs.
That repair lasted all the rest of the years we had that Monza.
Although it wasn't used very much after I got my own XS400 Yamaha with electric starter.
I was told my Dad originally bought that Monza for my mother in 1968, for their anniversary but she never used it after 1970, mainly because she needed my Dad to start it for her.
He even made that Mozna's gearing lower by swapping the front sprockets with his Scrambler, so she could take off easier without stalling it.
I often miss having that lower gearing when riding my 250 Mark 3! But still, I do really like cruzing my M.3 in it's top gear too!
It's really too bad it doesn't have a 6-speed tranny.

I realize i have drifted off topic now.
So enough here from me for now.

Moto On,
Ken

Eldert
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby Eldert » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:14 pm

Desmoto-M.3 wrote:I
It's really too bad it doesn't have a 6-speed tranny.
Moto On,
Ken


Hi Ken
there are six speeders out there

Image

Image


it is a close ratio box for racing so first gear is even higher

Eldert

DewCatTea-Bob
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Re: Starter gear spring / leaf spring ?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:14 pm

" I remember helping to fix that problem by following instructions that were given to my Dad by a tech adviser who was also a member of the Ducati International Owner's Club, and that guy told my Dad it was a regular problem for all models before 1966. "

____ Well D.M3/Ken, I was a 'Singles Tech-Advisor' for the D.I.O.C. from 1977 thru the '80s and helped no less than two members with that issue!
I used to tell fellow DUKE-owners that the simplest way to solve that common-problem with the pre-1966 models, was to make a strip of metal -(preferably from the same type of metal that's used to attach the points-cover), to place on the back-side of the leaf-springs, so as to help keep them in shape for doing their job.
Does that seem familiar to you?


" It's really too bad it doesn't have a 6-speed tranny. "

____ I kinda know what you mean about (that model of Mark-3) being able to make use of a 6th-gear,
but I wouldn't trust Ducati to have picked the new ratios for such a transmission ! ...
The old 4-speed models had a fairly adequate range of gear-ratios... While the top-gear was the same, 1st-gear was actually lower than that of the 5-speed's 1st-gear!
I had figured that when the new 5-speed models came-out, Ducati would've made top-gear to be a little-bit higher, and 1st-gear to be a bit lower than the 4-speed trans was. _ So as to provide a nice top-gear for cruising at high-speed, and yet also a nice low-gear for putting-along in slow traffic.
BUT instead, it seems that Ducati (CHEAPLY) employed the trans which had been intended for their 5-speed Scrambler-models, within all their other models as well !
__ That your dad had felt the need to trade the Monza's 17t-sprocket for the Scrambler's 14t, doesn't surprise me much, providing that the Monza was to be used primarily within the city.
Doing that swap, lowered the Monza's 1st-gear overall-ratio from 16.74:1 to 20.33:1, thus providing almost 2 extra power-strokes per turn of the real-wheel ! _ While the Scrambler's 1st-gear was raised from 22.58:1 to 18.60:1 .
Those changes would've made both models somewhat better suited for in-town street-riding. _ (More so for the Monza, than the Scr.)
__ The overall 1st-gear ratio for the 4-speed Monza-models, was 18.20:1,, (due only to it's 44/16 [internal teeth] vs. 43/17t [2.53:1 ratio] for the 5-speed).
Your Mark-3's 40/18t sprockets, produce that model's extra high 1st-gear overall-ratio of 14.05:1 ! _ (That's even higher gearing than that of 2nd-gear on the stock Scrambler!) _ It's low enough for country-road riding but, leaves a bit to be desired for in town.
If only Ducati had retained the internal 1st-gear ratio (2.75:1) of their 4-speed trans! _ (Then your Mark-3's 1st-gear overall-ratio would've been 15.28:1, almost as low as the Scrambler's 2nd-gear!)
____ The wide-case models got screwed on low-gear, even more so! _ With an internal-ratio of just 2.47:1 (37/15t), giving the WideCase Monza models an overall-ratio of 16.32:1 .
And while I'm at it,, the stock WideCase Mark-3's 1st-gear overall-ratio was set at 16.44:1, due to a 15t instead of the 18-tooth countershaft-sprocket -(which was stock on the NarrowCase 250 Mark-3 models).


DUCATIly,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob


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