175/200 parts interchangeability

[ranton_rambler]

OK, I've got my little 175TS project home now, although only done a bit of reading of the various books that came with it.
It seems that the 175 engine is not over-endowed with power so as I need to strip and rebuild it anyway, I was wondering about swapping some parts if I can find them to make it a bit more capable for modern traffic conditions.
One option is to make it more like the Sport specification which looks to be higher compression. I don't know about camshaft differences. Is the compression ratio achieved with a different piston, or with the cylinder head, or maybe both?
I could also look at going to 200cc. According to the book, the stroke is the same, so can I put a new liner in with the bigger bore, or do I need a different barrel? And would it fit with the existing crankcase, cylinder head etc.
I have a parts book for the 175TS but have not tracked down on-line versions for the 175 Sport or 200.

Ian

[Jon Pegler]

The Elite cylinder barrel will not fit into a set of 175 cases without machining out the crankcases.
A piston with a higher crown is your easiest way to increase compression, but you must check the valve/piston/cylinder head clearances after a trial assembly of the components. These clearances should be checked after any engine assembly work.
The camshaft in a 175T is part no. 175.DS51 ( 0400.29.010 ) which was used in most Elites, although not in the 175 Sport, so should give quite a lively performance.

As Craig said in a previous post, where does the VMCC marque expert get a 1960 date from?

jon

[ranton_rambler]

I only sent the VMCC guy the frame number, so he must have based the date on that, and the high-ish frame number. He sent me a scan of an Italian book that says the 175TS was only made from 1958-60, but that does not match the Ian Falloon book. The Mick Walker book that I have doesn't even list the 175TS!

Bore increase sounds like a step too far, but Sport piston should be possible. I've seen one on eBay today, but I need to check my bore size/condition before starting shopping.
The parts book that came with the bike says the TS camshaft is 175.DS 51, which I assume was renumbered to 0400.29.010? I haven't grasped Ducati's numbering system yet. If it's the same as the 175T, I have the valve timing (35-65-65-35)in the Mick Walker book. If the MW book is right, the 175 Sport is different (44-73-73-38), and the 200 Elite is different again (34-56-70-24).
I'm not after massive performance gains, just a bit more than a CG125, so I can keep up with the VMCC guys. They and their bikes are old, but they ride rather briskly.

[Ventodue]

I only sent the VMCC guy the frame number, so he must have based the date on that, and the high-ish frame number. He sent me a scan of an Italian book that says the 175TS was only made from 1958-60 ...

Two things that suggest otherwise:

1. The second edition of this version of an owner's handbook covering the 175TS (amongst other models) has a publishing date of March 1961. I have even seen reference to a third edition dated December 1963.





Btw, here's the single model handbook from 1959. The English language version has a purple cover.

175.jpg

2. As previously noted: your 07 *** frame number suggests 1962.

... but that does not match the Ian Falloon book.

Ian is probably the foremost published author on bevel-drive Ducatis; but even he readily concedes that he doesn't know everything, especially about the singles!

The parts book that came with the bike says the TS camshaft is 175.DS 51, which I assume was renumbered to 0400.29.010? I haven't grasped Ducati's numbering system yet.

Simples.
The first 4 numbers refer to the model in which a particular part first appeared. If it was then used again in later models, it still retains this number.

The next two numbers describe where the part is located, what it does. "29" is (surprise, surprise ...) the code for 'Distribuzione' - valve timing.

The final three numbers identify the specific part and any variants. For example, the standard valve guide for the 750/900SS is 0765.92.390. The first oversize is then .395, the second oversize .396 etc. Also, if a part was modified during the course of its life, this is the number that gets changed.

[Jon Pegler]

I have an English language handbook covering 100 Sport, 125 Sport, 175 Tourist, 175 Sport and 200 Elite.
Is this the one you are referring to, Craig?
It's dated December 1959

IMGP0835.JPG

One clue to the date of Ian's 175 would be to look at the swinging arm bearings.
Are they an A series frame with the swinging arm bushes in the frame, or a B series frame with the bushes in the swinging arm itself?
My understanding is that the A series frame was out of production by late 1960.

Jon

[ducwiz]

The workshop manual lists the different cam timings on p. 89. You may download it from http://s5.histats.com/stats/r.php?104172&100&58&urlr=&www.rpw.it/Files/Ducati_Motoleggere_Monoalbero_ManOff.pdf. But beware, it's written in Italian language and is large, >60MB.

cheers Hans

[Ventodue]

I have an English language handbook covering 100 Sport, 125 Sport, 175 Tourist, 175 Sport and 200 Elite.
Is this the one you are referring to, Craig? It's dated December 1959.

Hee, hee - that's yet another version, Jon!

This is a colour photo of the cover of the one I was referring to, dated March 1961:



And here's confirmation of the publication date and the list of models covered. Note it specifically lists the TS as opposed to the Tourismo. This kinda suggests that the Tourismo may have been out of production by 1961, its place being taken by the TS - in Italy, at least, and that's where this bike came from.

175 b.jpg

[Ventodue]

The workshop manual lists the different cam timings on p. 89. You may download it from ...

Or here it is as a scan (and in English!)

[ducwiz]

OK, thanks. But - this picture is quite small, the numbers are hardly readable on my monitor.
Did you scan the entire manual? If so, it would be fine to have them converted into a pdf-document, which can be hosted somewhere (Motoscrubs?) for download. If you have those scans but cannot convert them, you can zip them togehther into a single file and then send this via https://www.transferbigfiles.com/ to me. I'll do the conversion job and send it back to you or can upload to a file hoster.

Hans

[ranton_rambler]

Lots of useful stuff there thanks.
I’ll take a photo of the swinging arm at the weekend and post it on here, but I think it is the earlier type.

I have a photocopy of the English language workshop manual (August 1960 version), but hadn’t spotted the table of different cam timings. It disagrees with the Mick Walker book so I think I’ll need to try and measure the valve timing before I pull it apart. Are the part numbers written on them? I’ve read about colour coding but I think that only came along a bit later.

For the dating, I am told that DVLA prefer the manufacturer to provide the information if possible, so a helpful lady at Ducati Wolverhampton is trying to sort this out for me. I’m not hopeful, but she has not given up yet.