Points or Electronic Ignition?

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ccambern
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:18 pm

Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby ccambern » Thu May 27, 2010 6:38 pm

I'm a little cranky with the idea of spending $44 on points (Guzziano) and I'm half-tempted to convert to electronic ignition with a Pertronix unit... anyone have experience doing this on a Duc? Or maybe there is some commonly available point set out there that can be made to work? Ideas?

-Clark

Jon Pegler
Posts: 459
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby Jon Pegler » Thu May 27, 2010 7:47 pm

I use Bosch points as used in old VW's. Bosch part number 1 237 013 052.
They do require a small amount of modification to the points backplate, but they are much better than the old Ducati ones.
The contact faces are solid tungsten, so they last a long time.
Give it a try. I use them all the time. Got to be cheaper than $44.
Jon

DewCatTea-Bob
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Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu May 27, 2010 7:50 pm

____ So what's wrong with the continued use of your existing points-set ?

____ There have been points-activated electronic systems, which unlike the stock system, actually don't care about the capability of the contact-points themselves to conduct the actual high-current power-juice which powers the ign.coil !
Instead, those electronic systems 'sense' when the points have separated and then conduct the required power-juice through the ign.coil, using their own added internal electronics which can handle the ign.coil's high-current much better than the points themselves can !
This saves the contact-points from burn-out as well as make their condition far less important for getting good spark !
You then only need be concerned about keeping their gap properly set.
__ In the late '70s, the price-range for such black-boxes was from 30 to 80 bucks.
Ya can get all the parts needed to make your own, from Radio Shack. _ They even used to sell a booklet that showed the circuit & required electronic parts needed to build your own black-box for the job of saving points-systems from high electrical-current ! _ As I recall, all the parts were under 10-bucks, the most expensive of which was the little utility-box for housing the circuit. _ I bolted mine to the frame-webbing located in front of the mounting-point for the ign.coil.
After that, tune-ups (in regards to the points) only required resetting of the points-gap ! - (As their contacts stayed perfect!)


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

mongo
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 1:51 am

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby mongo » Thu May 27, 2010 9:23 pm

There is (or perhaps was) a ignition box called the Mitey-Max that a lot of the Britbike chopper guys would use to eliminate the need for a battery. Essentially the alternator windings would charge a big capacitor, that would discharge through the ignition coil. Down side was weak headlight at idle, and sometime would require 3 or 4 healthy kicks to charge the cap. I ran one on a 500cc Triumph chop I built, it worked quite well, and even seemed to improve high RPM performance. Downside (at least on my Duc) is that I really wouldn't want to have to kick the bike any more than necessary, my foot still hurts from the kickback a week and a half ago.

DewCatTea-Bob
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Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu May 27, 2010 11:37 pm

" There is (or perhaps was) a ignition box called the Mitey-Max "

____ I recall the "Mitey-Max" unit from the '70s (listed for 59.95 then) but, the model I recall had nothing more to do with the ignition-circuit than a battery does, as it was just a good battery-eliminator black-box unit.
__ Wish I could recall the exact names of some of the electronic black-box units that were made specifically for helping points-type ign.systems. _ I think there was 'SRC-1', and/or 'Dyna-1', but just not sure anymore.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

mongo
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 1:51 am

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby mongo » Fri May 28, 2010 12:04 am

You are probably right. I did have an add-on box that worked as I described, but back in the day a lot of stuff that allowed you to run sans battery got called 'mitey-max' kind of like facial tissue gets called 'Kleenex'.

I put an MSD box on my 68 Sportster before they started making bike specific models. As I recall, if I brought the engine up on the compression stroke with the kicker, I could sometime get it to start just by turning on the key. That was fun at the gas pump. I took it off when I kept burning out HD coil packs, never did find a good combo that worked.

Pete
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:00 am
Location: Walworth, NY

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby Pete » Fri May 28, 2010 2:21 am

DewCatTea-Bob wrote:____ There have been points-activated electronic systems, which unlike the stock system, actually don't care about the capability of the contact-points themselves to conduct the actual high-current power-juice which powers the ign.coil !
Instead, those electronic systems 'sense' when the points have separated and then conduct the required power-juice through the ign.coil, using their own added internal electronics which can handle the ign.coil's high-current much better than the points themselves can !
This saves the contact-points from burn-out as well as make their condition far less important for getting good spark !
You then only need be concerned about keeping their gap properly set.


Is this the kind of thing you are talking about?

http://www.mynode.com/2wheel/?t=simple.html&v=hei/index.html

Pete

ccambern
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:18 pm

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby ccambern » Fri May 28, 2010 12:17 pm

Jon Pegler wrote:I use Bosch points as used in old VW's. Bosch part number 1 237 013 052.


Perfect! I've used Bosch stuff a lot on racecars and thought they looked similar. I like the idea of building something as well... maybe that'll be a winter project.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Fri May 28, 2010 1:38 pm

" Is this the kind of thing you are talking about? "

____ Well Pete, first I have to tell you THANK-YOU very much for finding & sharing that !!
I've never heard of that exact "HEI" set-up before !
__ To answer your question, I have to answer 'Yes' & 'No'. ...
'Yes', in that that set-up is indeed "the kind of thing" I was referring to, in that it very greatly reduces the power-juice that the contact-points need to handle! _ But otherwise 'No', as that set-up is actually quite different from any of the related electronic-circuits that I've ever heard about, as the one you've found is considerably more complex !
The main advantage of the circuits that I once knew of, is that the ign.spark still fires when the points OPEN.
That 'HEI' set-up otherwise seems to be quite superior ! ...
__ The main advantage of that 'HEI' circuit, (over the simpler circuits I knew of), is that it also seems to be enabled to actually control the preferred length of time during when electrical-current is conducted through the ign.coil,, so that ONLY the proper amount of power-juice is charged into the ign.coil so as to be sure that it merely consumes the correct amount of electrical-current which is actually needed for the ign.coil to become fully saturated, and thus best perform it's required job, (without consuming & wasting any unneeded power-juice). _ That quite incredible advantage saves any excess power-juice (supplied by the battery & alternator) from being WASTED through the ign.coil & contact-points to ground ! _ Thus also lowering the charging-system's break-even RPM-point a bit, as well ! _ That's all quite fantastic !
__ So I'd say that running a stock-type ignition-system without such an added control, would be like filling small water-cups from a water-tap which has no way to stop it's flow once each cup has been filled to just the right level.
__ Another possible benefit (which the author seems to think may be a undesired flaw) of that proposed electronic-system, is that it COULD actually offer assistance with starting. ...
If you've read the author's article, you should then be aware that he claims that a spark is made by simply switching-on the ignition-system. _ If that's really the case, then a competent-type rider (who's the type who has no problem working a compression-release at just the right time during a full kick-through of the engine), could also easily learn the exact moment when best to turn-on the key during the kick! ...
By turning-on the ignition at just the right time -(about 2 to 8 degrees ATDC), would prevent any 'kick-back' while also igniting a charge of mixture to HELP (instead of hinder) ya to kick the motor through the following cycle, for much less effort getting kick-started. - (As anyone who's ever had a 'kick-back', knows that it would be very much preferred to have that power (of a kick-back) work WITH ya rather than against ya!)
____ We really should try to get the author of that enlightening piece to give us any update which he might have for his nicely done article !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

wrinkleygit
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Points or Electronic Ignition?

Postby wrinkleygit » Sat May 29, 2010 9:07 am

Check out the "black box" available from Pazon, used to be people from Boyer Bransdon who I believe went from UK to down under,the units are readily avail in the UK for about £50, I assume getting them sent anywhere else would not be a problem, the box also incorporates a "timing" led ,they have a website a quick search on the word Pazon should find it ok,having said that I am still running points/condensor without any problem,when I replaced the cond recently I used the biggest Lucas unit I could find & mounted it externaly, keep on running, mike b.


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