Pump overhaul.

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Bevel bob
Posts: 1042
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Pump overhaul.

Postby Bevel bob » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:20 pm

End play on the pump gears, I intend to deal with this as per a Norton pump,ie, face off body and plate til nil clearance,free to turn, any issues?

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:49 am

" End play on the pump gears, I intend to deal with this as per a Norton pump,ie, face off body and plate til nil clearance,free to turn, any issues? "

____ Providing I've properly understood what you're meaning to convey, then no issues against it that I know of.
__ Seems it should increase effectiveness of the pump by a percentage-point.
Plus...
That may even prevent break-downs of the pump, as I've found a (small) number of them seized-up due to small-bits (like very short & thin wire pieces) found (not in between the gear-teeth, but) in-between the back-side of one of the gears & inside-wall of the pump.
If that very thin space -("End play" / slop) were to be reduced to "nil" -(near zero), then such small bits of metal would have no chance to slip-in and get jammed-in between there !
__ Twice, (but only once in a DUKE), I added oil from a freshly-opened can of oil (Pennsoil in the case of my DUKE), and only miles later, the oil-pump got sized-up !! ...
I was once riding my very first Mark-III heading out into the country, after having just added the fresh can of oil at a filling-station on the out-skirts of the city,, I was just cruising-along steady at about 40MPH when I thought I heard an ever so slight single metallic-sounding snap from my motor...
Wondering what that might've been, I shifted from 4th to 5th and slowed-down about 5MPH, (at the time, I had 50/17t gearing), and continued-on like that for about a mile, keeping my ears open while wondering what might've happened.
Then not long after, I begain to notice my motor making more of a clacketty-noise. ...
__ Well later the next day, I checked into the motor and found no oil under the ex.valve-cover and a sloppy/loose rocker-arm, then next discovered that the tip-end of the oil-pump's drive-gear was sheered-off,, and then next, also badly worn rockers & cam-lobes !
__ The piece of very thin wire, later found in the pump, had had no problem slipping-through the mesh-screen of the oil-filter !
____ Concerning that filter... Always make sure ya get that less than perfectly stiff-&-straight extension's tip-end/snout properly located into it's female receptor-hole ! - (Hope there's no ladies taking any offense!? :oops: )
Cuz more so than not, I've found that while turning those filters inward, the tip-end won't exactly find-home (on it's own)... So when it starts to resist turning inward (after about 20% of it's threads have turned-in, with ease), then instead of FORCING it any further,, instead, just back-out a partial-turn and FEEL it's tip-end find-home, before then continuing-on screwing inward & torquing-it-down !
__ If you've ever found one of those oil-filters all warped-up, (and who of us hasn't ??), you now know that a previous oil-changer had no clue of what he (or she!) was actually doing ! :lol:
;)


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Bevel bob
Posts: 1042
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby Bevel bob » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 am

Hi Bob, Is there a conversion to fit a proper seal at the oilway bush?, I suspect my bush to be damaged by the wobbly crank,the manual gives max size for the bush but no size for the crank so difficult to know if ok. Max clearance? My crank end will need cleaning up.I think I will remove the roll pin from the crank oilway.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Mon May 03, 2010 6:37 am

" Is there a conversion to fit a proper seal at the oilway bush?, "

____ I'm left to think that you're asking if I know of any kind of plan which prevents at least some of any oil-seepage which leaks through between the O.D. of the crankshaft's right tip-end & the I.D. of the bushing it fits into !? ...
If so, then sorry,, as I've never had or seen anything of the like.
I only know that that particular bushing was made in it's std.size & .1mm over-size.
__ I must assume that any oil which leaks though the fit between the 12.0mm O.D. of the crankshaft's tip-end and the 12.0mm I.D. of that bushing, is expected & okay.


" I suspect my bush to be damaged by the wobbly crank,the manual gives max size for the bush but no size for the crank so difficult to know if ok. Max clearance? My crank end will need cleaning up. "

____ If the O.D. of the tip-end of your crankshaft actually gets reduced any small but significant amount,, then you may need to get a specially made bushing, to replace your stock-bushing.
__ In any case, to deduce & obtain a maximum-clearance figure (for whatever combo you end-up with), I suggest subtracting 12.0mm from the "max size" given by your manual (for that bushing).
(Please let me know if my wording, in any way, doesn't make sense to you.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

ally oop
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby ally oop » Mon May 03, 2010 6:25 pm

Hey gents, I have the tooling to macine the outer cover for a seal over the pump bushing, and it's a nice, tidy fix that seems to work well...we used to do it at Eurosport and I still have the stuff...I reckon it'd be about $40 if you mail me your cover...feel free to email me at johnfoyston@comcast.net...
cheers;
JF
Portland, OR

dsmess
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:49 pm
Location: Washington,USA

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby dsmess » Mon May 03, 2010 11:22 pm

John,

I was just going to mention...a shop near Portland used to do this mod. I remember your artistic yellow flyer you put out. This was really great! I still have one laying around I think. I may be interested in your mod.

Scott

Bevel bob
Posts: 1042
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:01 am
Location: Bromley Kent UK.

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby Bevel bob » Thu May 06, 2010 4:48 pm

Thanks guys , you are a bit too far away from me! someone does the job in the UK.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Thu May 06, 2010 6:25 pm

____ I think I recall reading in an old D.I.O.C. newsletter (from 1980 +/- 2 years), of some-body/place who offered to perform that work-job modification.
__ It would be quite interesting to see a comparison of the exact methods employed by different sources for that work-job modification !
Does anyone at all have any related pix to show us?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

dsmess
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:49 pm
Location: Washington,USA

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby dsmess » Fri May 07, 2010 4:14 pm

I found my copy of the old Eurosport flyer that has a sketch of John's oil seal mod. He counterbores the boss in the timing cover 18mm dia and 3.5mm deep. The boss walls are pretty thin, but I guess wide enough to support the oil seal. I'm thinking it may make more sense to machine a groove for a 12mm O ring in the ID of the boss and use a shorter bushing...that is it would be recessed in the bore about .25" to give room for the Oring.

Scott

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Re: Pump overhaul.

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Fri May 07, 2010 10:50 pm

" He counterbores the boss in the timing cover 18mm dia and 3.5mm deep. The boss walls are pretty thin, but I guess wide enough to support the oil seal. "

____ Being left with a "thin" boss-wall doesn't seem too desirable, but for then only being used to support just the added oil-seal, the thinned wall ought be sufficient.


" I'm thinking it may make more sense to machine a groove for a 12mm O ring in the ID of the boss and use a shorter bushing..."

____ If I myself thought that it was very useful to have an oil-seal located near this point, I'd PREFER this machine-work idea, as it seems less drastic and leaves the option to go-back to using a (completely supported) stock-bushing.
__ Taking this "groove" idea a step further, I'm thinking why not simply put a groove & seal right into the bushing itself !?
If a seal that small can't be found, then bore the bushing's boss to accept the next sized larger bushing.

____ I'm really not on-board with the whole-idea of any seal being needed at this intended point...
I'm wondering why it seems that Ducati didn't see a need for such ! _ I'm thinking that if such a seal is able to do it's job 100%, then how would it be able to last very long, without some protection from the friction of being held against the spinning crankshaft-tip?
And if the seal still leaks enough oil to be protected, then does it do it's intended job well enough to be all worth-while?
__ I really wouldn't bother with the whole notion of installing any oil-seal placed at this particular location, without any kind of test-data to confirm that it's indeed worth doing this type of work-job modification.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob


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