Green White Cam

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" There is no way to check for cam colour markings just by removing the rocker covers is there? Where exactly are the paint markings located? "

____ No, not either valve-cover... Rather the bevel-gear cover (with only 3-screws) ! ...
The paint-codes were originally dabbed on the very tip-end of the threaded-end of the camshaft... However sometime after a 1000-miles and a few oil-changes, that paint most always gets washed-away !
__ So I wouldn't bother to remove the bevel-cover just for a look-see (especially if it's a tach-drive type), unless there's also another reason to do so, (such as replacing the three original 16mm-screws, with 20 to 25mm preferably aluminum-screws).


" I'll pull the cam out and let you know what I have. "

____ Don't forget then that the shaft-nut is LEFT-hand threaded !


" If I do have a G/W cam and there are any 250/450 SCR owners out there who want to do a cam swap, please let me know "

____ Swapping for a 'White-cam' is a good idea if YOUR 350 has the '250F1/G&W-cam' & runs with a muffler ! _ However, if your 350-DUKE has the (less wild) real 'WideCase-350/(G&W)-cam', then you might prefer to keep it as is. _ As I believe that THAT cam is the second-best choice for a 350 ! _ (The Grey/M1-cam is the BEST -[for overall-power range]!).
The 'White' w-c '250Scrambler-cam' -(also stock in 450s) makes a good choice for running with a restrictive muffler on a 350, and provides about the best mid-range power for a 350, and certainly improves a WideCase-350's bottom-end power !
Thus for normal street-legal road-riding, a 350 that has the 'F1/G&W-cam', will benefit with a swap to the 'White-cam'.
__ Either G&W-cam does it's intended-job -(breath better at high-RPM), considerably better in a 250 (compared to a 350) with the same muffler, (since back-pressure is not as strong, thus letting the 250 rev higher [than a 350] & take better advantage of the wild valve-timing!). _ Thus a 250 (with a G&W-cam), can make more power by taking advantage of the 250's capability to rev at higher RPM, (if only whatever it's cam would allow a 250 to make extra power at the higher range) !
__ So such a swap between a w-c 350 & a 250-SCR can be advantageous for both DUKEs.
__ Also, the way a 450 can benefit from such a swap, (which is in a very much different manor than how a 250 could), is because the '250Scrambler-cam' that's stock in most non-DESMO 450s, starves -(chokes) a 450 with insufficient time to fill it's large cylinder, (thus hurting mid-range & killing top-end!), as much as it could be filled with a G&W-cam. _ So the G&W-cam can help solve that short-come of most 450s, and also do it without making the 450 run peaky -(in need of high-RPM like a peaky 250), (due to larger cylinders being harder to fill !) !
Thus while the 450's bottom-end power will only get hurt a relatively slight amount (as compared to either of the smaller cylinders), the rest of it's range will very much increase, resulting with a much improved overall power-range (compared to the stock-450) !
NOTE though however, if a 450 has the '450Mark3-cam', then a G&W-cam will very likely hurt rather than help the 450's overall power-range, (but not by a great deal).


DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DucBevellvr]

This post takes-off from the 'Points Adjustment' thread (which has some related info left-out here)....


" And if you have the spec figures for any or all, how they differ from one another and if those differences are good or bad for whatever, etc. "

____ The first 350 -(narrow-case Sebring) had the same cam & valve-timing as the 250-Monza !
That has the exhaust-valve opening at 50-degrees Before-Botton-Dead-Center (when the power-stroke has about finished).
Then next the intake-valve opens at 20-degrees Before-Top-Dead-Center and then the exhaust-valve closes at 30-degrees After-Top-Dead-Center. - (This short period when both valves are open at TDC is called 'overlap', and in this case it's 50-degrees long.)
Then next the intake-valve closes at 70-degrees After-Bottom-Dead-Center. _ (And then the spark occurs as soon as 70-degrees later, just before TDC.)
__ That 'Monza' valve-timing -(in: 20-BTDC to 70-ABDC & ex: 50-BBDC to 30-ATDC) provides an intake-duration of 270-degrees and an exhaust-duration of 260-degrees, which is not very mild for a 250 but it's quite mild for a 350 (which also has the same size plumbing -[so-to-speak].)
__ The 'Monza-cam' is identified with violet-paint and by it's 'lift' of 7.5mm for it's intake-lobe & 7.2mm for it's exhaust-lobe.
__ The wide-case Sebring-cam has an intake-lobe lift of only 7.4mm, and it's valve-timing is: in. 22-60 & ex. 51-28, thus providing 262-degrees of intake-duration & 259-degrees of exhaust-duration, (even milder!), but also with 50-degrees of overlap, (as the narrow-case version has).
__ Either version of this cam makes a fair choice for a 350-DUKE that's intended to be used for quick stop-&-go type city-driving and/or where better fuel-mileage is desired, or for best hill-climb chugging.

____ Next 350-cam was the one used for the 1967 350-Scrambler (which was the first std.production wide-case 350 imported into the U.S.A.).
This cam's timing is: intake 65-BTDC to 76-ABDC & exhaust 80-BBDC to 50ATDC, which provides an intake-duration of 321-degrees, an overlap of 115-degrees, & an exhaust-duration of 310-degrees.
__ Anyone who understands this cam-timing tech very well, will realize that this cam is in no way suitable as a 'scrambler' type cam !
(I have had fairly-good reason to believe that this particular cam was originally designed for use in a narrow-case 350Mark-3, as it's specs would be pretty-much perfect for a Mark-3 type 350 ! )
__ This 350-cam is the "real" w-c '350-cam' ! _ And for most 350s, was (stupidly) replaced with the 250F1-cam sometime by late 1969, (and still left to also be referred to as 'Green & White' !?).

____ The next 350-cam was actually the '250F1-cam', which has valve-timing of: in. 70BT - 84AB & ex. 80BB - 64AT, and provides an intake-duration of 334-degrees, a (wild) overlap of 134-degrees, and an exhaust-duration of 324-degrees.
__ This cam's specs certainly make it qualify as a 'racing-cam' for a 250 ! _ And even in a 350, it's quite excessively wild !
Anyone who has experience with valve-timing tech should realize that this cam is TOO wild to get full advantage of what it's actually capable of performing, while also running with a std.muffler ! _ In fact, running this F1-cam with most any muffler will not only cut it's intended ability to increase a 350-DUKE's peak-power, but ANY other std.DUKE-cam you could get would provide an increase in overall-power (when running with whatever muffler) !
It's so crazy that Ducati installed this cam into any Scrambler-type model ! _ I'm sure that they only did so with the 350SCR/SSS because Berliner stupidly requested for the factory to do that for some inexplicable reason.
Many people think that hotter/wilder-cams will always make bikes go faster but, that's not always the case under all circumstances ! _ As cams which are TOO wild, can actually loose a race against much milder cams, (all else being equal).

____ The std.DESMO-cam -(which is actually the '250-DESMO cam') stock in 350-DESMOs, is coded Blue&White, and was based on the 250F1-cam,, with both having about the same 'lift' of 10mm for the intake & 9mm for the exhaust.
It's valve-timing is: in. 70 - 82 & ex. 80 - 65, which thus provides an intake-duration of 332-degrees, an overlap of 135-degrees, and an exhaust-duration of 325-degrees... Which considering that Ducati states that their actual cam valve-timing figure-specs are within +/- 5-degrees, SEEMS to indicate that the std.DESMO-cam has no high-RPM breathing-advantage over the '250F1-cam'. _ However the valve-timing & lift is not the whole-story ! ...
The DESMO-cam opens & closes the valves at a slightly faster rate, thus it's 'Average-Lift' is somewhat increased, over the F1-cam's ! _ And while that added slight difference does indeed provide an extra breathing advantage, it's nothing to get too excited about, because you'd need a dynamometer to realize any increased power difference, due to that slight advantage alone.

____ The final cam which I'm aware of being stock in 350-DUKEs is the 'White-cam'...
The White-cam was first used for the late 1968 wide-case 250-Scrambler ! _ And that cam was very well suited for a SCR-type model ! _ Which is why I have believed in the past that it was designed specifically for that particular 250-model, (however, there are clues that could lead one to think that it may have actually been originally designed with the 350-Scrambler in mind!).
__ The valve-timing of the 'White-cam' is: in. 27BT - 75AB & ex. 60BB - 32AT, which provides an intake-duration of 282-degrees, an overlap of 59-degrees, and an exhaust-duration of 272-degrees. _ And as I recall, it's lift is 8mm for the intake & 7.6mm for the exhaust - (I might have those lobe-figures .1 to .2mm too high... I won't be positive until I mike one again).
__ This same cam was also definitely used for the 450-Scrambler/Jupiter as well, although, I believe it to be much too mild for a 450, even if a SCR-model ! _ And while I've never actually had my hands on a cam removed from a 450-Mark-3, I understand that even that 450-model inexplicably came stock with the White-cam also,, and that's way too much extra mild for a 450-Mk3 model ! - (The 450Mk3 was supposed to have it's very-own cam!)
__ Now while I myself have installed the White SCR-cam into (otherwise stock) 350-Scramblers, (with very-good results), I've never found one in any stock-350, and I doubt that any 350s were imported into the U.S.A. with this cam, (no doubt due to Berliner's whim).
The only reason why I believe that the 'White-cam' was ever installed by the factory into some of their 350s, is because I've read so, in British sources that it was,, and it also stands to good reason that Ducati themselves would've chosen to also use the White-cam in the 350-Scrambler as well, since they did indeed choose to use it for both their 250 & 450 Scrambler-models !

____ I fully welcome any comments about anything I've written within this post ! _ So please do so, if you're at all inclined.


DUKE-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

WOW, DCT-Bob,
I guess this must be your responce to my request for related information about this stuff?
If so, it's pretty much over the top for what I had hoped to only get from my request! And so much so, that I almost feel like I should pay you or something.
The fact that my request also led to you leaning something that you seemed to want to know about as well, has hopefully made it all worth your time and trouble for your extra long report concerning this very interesting subject.
THANK YOU very much, DCT-Bob!

But now I have still more questions, which I'm sort of afraid to ask, because you probably expected for your long post on the subject to cover everything I might have wanted to know, and I'm also concerned that anymore such vague requests/questions from me may cause another over the top responce from you, and I really don't wish to bother you to such a great degree! So I guess I should just wait and see if any other posts may answer my remaining questions.

Thanks again very much!
JeffP

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Now I'm REALLY interested to see what my 350 Scrambler has for a cam! My Scrambler is not a USA bike that came in through Berliner. "

____ Right Graham, I've always been aware that Canada had been getting some very nice Italian-made models that were slightly different from the more limited selection which we were stuck with here in the U.S. ! _ And ever since the wide-case models came-out, I've always been quite curious as to whether any of the Canadian-DUKEs came with different cams, especially the 350s !
So I've been anxiously awaiting for you to check-out YOUR 350's cam !
__ I once knew a fellow who had imported a new 1972 350Mark-3 from Canada, and I was very interested in the cam in his DUKE, but he didn't care enough to bother with checking it out.
I KNOW that some 350-models were exported from the Ducati-factory to other countries with the Green&White cam but, I don't know which countries may have received 350-Scramblers with the 'White' cam.


" It has always been a Canadian bike, so it has the factory frame number stampings on the head stock, rather than the sticker that Berliner used. "

____ Right, apparently Berliner wanted to get lower prices by ordering larger numbers of DUKEs, yet also wanted to cover themselves (from getting stuck with any past-year productions which would then later be harder to sell), by having Ducati provide the stickers with "196 " stamped on them (instead of properly stamping the frames directly), with the intention of just stamping the sticker with a 7 or 8 after the '196' (although later actually neglected), so as to (shadily) sell 1966-productions as current-year models, which is the reason why the U.S. was still getting some narrow-case models while the rest of the world had starting getting only the new wide-case models ! _ (Although I understand that England also later got some of Berliner's pre-ordered stock-pile of narrow-case models, as well.)
__ If only Ducati themselves had owned their own U.S. importer for their productions, I'm sure that the DUCATI-marquee & name would've then done better. _ (And also, if only Berliner [or Cosmo] had imported the DUCATI-line of Mototrans's motorcycles, then all such motorcycles would be even more interesting here in the U.S.!)


" it also has a different cam setup, if the G/W cam was done for Berliner? "

____ I'm not absolutely positive that Berliner was solely behind the choice of the '250F1-cam' being installed into w-c.350s for just the U.S., (as the Italian-gov. may have been an influence for that [poor] decision to have gotten made), I've only highly suspected Berliner because they were indeed known to require changes of Ducati's own choices (in handlebar-style, for instance), plus it was pretty-much the same time as when Berliner began their own "350 SSS" -(Street, Sports, Scrambler) ad.campaign, that the F1-cams had then replaced the (more sensible) std.w-c.350-cams, in all w-c.350-models (for the U.S. at-least).
__ Note included 350SSS-ad by Berliner, below.....


" Of course, with the Spanish cylinder head casting, with the Italian compression release, who knows what is installed inside my engine! "

____ That's true too,, as your particular 350 does indeed seem to be an unlikely std.production DUKE, and may very-well likely be somebody's past project-DUKE which may have then received a few nonstock-parts.


" I'll try and get the cam out when I come back. "

____ Really can't wait to find-out !
Let me know when you're ready to take it out, as I'll then give you instructions on how best to remove the camshaft from out of it's head.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: 'DucBevellver' ...
" I guess this must be your responce to my request for related information about this stuff? "

____ You're right Jeff, that was indeed my response to your request (for such info), which you had asked for within another (unrelated) thread. _ And I had chosen this preexisting thread to move the side-tracked topic to. _ (But I've been thinking of moving it to the Camshaft Data thread.)


" The fact that my request also led to you leaning something that you seemed to want to know about as well, has hopefully made it all worth your time and trouble for your extra long report concerning this very interesting subject. "

____ That's quite true, I did learn some (questionable) info concerning camshafts (with "orange" paint) taken from a 350 Mototrans model. _ But that did not need to happen in order for me to be pleased that I had bothered to write-up my extensive response-post ! ...
__ I have long been meaning to place such a post concerning ALL over-head DUKE-cams, (not just 350 cams),, but have been putting that off because it's such a large endeavor to get started & finished !
So your nonspecific inquiry gave me the prod I needed to get started with that which I had already wanted to get-going on anyhow !


" But now I have still more questions, which I'm sort of afraid to ask, because you probably expected for your long post on the subject to cover everything I might have wanted to know, and I'm also concerned that anymore such vague requests/questions from me may cause another over the top responce from you, and I really don't wish to bother you to such a great degree! "

____ Now you should understand that my response was not actually "over-the-top", since it was not really intended to be just a reply-back for only you alone. - (It's always my intention that even my reply-posts are written for general-reading by most anyone!)
Actually, I really had expected & even hoped that any of my extensive-postings would lead to more questions, which would then prod me further to place still more such extensive (so called "over the top") responses.
__ I'm even somewhat disappointed that there doesn't seem to be more DUKErs like I once used to be back when I first got into DUKEs,, as those who're like my much younger-self, would have very many questions about DUKEs to ask of somebody like I've come to be !
So please don't be "afraid" to ask whatever else you would like to know about ! _ (But keep in mind that there is a fair chance that I may not really know all the answers!)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DucBevellvr]

____ That's quite true, I did learn some (questionable) info concerning camshafts (with "orange" paint) taken from a 350 Mototrans model. _ But that did not need to happen in order for me to be pleased that I had bothered to write-up my extensive response-post ! ...
__ I have long been meaning to place such a post concerning ALL over-head DUKE-cams, (not just 350 cams),, but have been putting that off because it's such a large endeavor to get started & finished !
So your nonspecific inquiry gave me the prod I needed to get started with that which I had already wanted to get-going on anyhow !

____ Now you should understand that my response was not actually "over-the-top", since it was not really intended to be just a reply-back for only you alone. - (It's always my intention that even my reply-posts are written for general-reading by most anyone!)

-Bob

Thanks Bob, that's all nice to know! I had been hoping that it was really something like that, however when there was no "reply-post" from you for so long, I did'nt know for sure what to think.

Thanks,
JeffP

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" however when there was no "reply-post" from you for so long, I did'nt know for sure what to think. "

____ Yeah sorry about that Jeff ! _ Back near the time of your post, there were then also other posts (within other threads) which I had found to be more useful to post responses to,, and afterwords, I had simply forgotten to get back to yours (until I recently rediscovered it).


Good-Cheers,
-Bob

[frankfast]

I'm still looking for a cam for my 350 Scrambler, preferably the green/white that came with the bike. But if anyone has a cam for sale at a reasonable price please PM me. Thanks Frank

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" In a previous post you said that you would give me some instructions on how best to remove my cam. "

____ Right Graham...
__ First, remove the cyl.head's bevel-cover and then turn-over the engine until the timing-dot/marks on the pair of bevel-gears are aligned, (and during the following process, try to make sure that those dot-marks don't get rotated very far apart).
Then pull-off at least the exhaust-side valve-cover (if not both).
Hopefully you already have, or can get a strong/rigid metal-bar -(like a file) that's at least 6" long, by 1/4" thick, and between 1/2" to 2" wide. _ And also a similar sized piece of wood.
(I've often used such a file-bar, along with a pair of paint stirring-sticks above & below the file, [it's a good idea to also wrap the file with a couple layers of duct-tape as well].)
Then insert your metal-bar & wood-piece (with wood faced downward) in-through above both rocker-arms, (and if your wood & bar is not wide enough to cover both rocker-arms, then just be sure to place them toward the spark-plug side & over the exhaust-rocker, so as to prevent the camshaft from being able to fully turn). _
Then unlock/unfold the lock-washer/tab from the camshaft-nut, and then you can loosen the LEFT-hand threaded nut from it's LEFT-hand threaded shaft, (so be sure to remember to turn that nut top-to-right, for getting it LOOSE !). _ (Don't use an impact-driver or any pounding to get the camshaft-nut loose, just torque-it loose.)
Once the front-face of the nut is un-threaded outward to just past the very tip-end of the camshaft's threaded-tip, then, (with the 4-screws already removed from the opposite-side camshaft support/cover), just tap on the nut (at the end of the camshaft) until the support-cover can be removed by hand,, and then ya should find (with the nut finally fully removed), that the camshaft is then ready to be pulled-out of it's place in the head.
__ Please let me know if there's any further question on this cam-removal job.


Dukaddy-DUKES,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" whoever put the cam in last time, did so really really tightly!! My file broke into 3 pieces, "

____ Wow, I've never had any 1/4" thick file bust-up in the process ! _ But then, I'd of course always have it backed-up with at least one piece of wood as well,, and the only reason I'd ever use such a file, was at times when I didn't happen to have a better suited bar of metal handy.


" so I found a piece of iron to put in there in its place. Even with a 2 foot extension on my spanner, I still can't get the nut to move "

____ That's really amazing alright ! _ Perhaps not only was the cam-nut way over-torqued but, they probably used some form of lock-tight adhesive as well.
Anyhow, at that point I would've next tried using a torch to heat-up that nut, before then trying the breaker-bar again. _ Did you try any heat?


" I've now taken the head off so I can take it to a workshop.
but when I took the head off, the bevel drive and transfer tube would not come with the head. I had to undo the two Hex bolts at the top and heat up the bearing housing a bit to get the head off, leaving the bevel drive and tube behind. "

____ That's highly irregular ! _ As even though the entire head-assy will sometimes get suck in position in such a manor as that, a little forced jiggle & wobbling while lifting upward on the head, will pretty-much always finesse the head up & off (along with it's connected tower-shaft & housing-tube!).
__ What the likely problem is in this case is somebody probably used an undersized or fairly rusted tower-shaft connector-sleeve, and then forced-pressed the shaft-tips into the connector-sleeve as the cyl.head-bolts were torqued-down.
In any case, that's of course not a good situation to have.
__ Does the tower-shaft housing-tube rotate within it's base-flange/retainer alright (as it ought to) ?


" Looks like I'm going to have to use the impact wrench to try and loosen this nut.
I'll let you know how the impact wrench goes! "

____ I didn't write my instruction-post to include what to do in the event of any strange run-in occurrences. _ But in this case, before continuing-on & removing the cyl.head, I would've suggested using an impact-driver, (with your metal-bar un-inserted!),, as a bit of impact-shock can quite often shock-loose such stubborn nuts.
__ But as I had mentioned in my instruction-post, with a bar inserted into the head above the cam, just use torque-pressure to get the nut loose.
However at the point where you've taken things to, I don't have further advice until I learn more of what you actually may care to try next.


Tillater,
-Bob

[Jon Pegler]

I've seen a number of cylinder heads damaged by using a metal bar to lock the camshaft.
Usually, a chunk of the head casting comes off the top of the head.
If using the proper Ducati camshaft locking tool doesn't allow the left hand threaded nut to come loose, it's probably better to cut the nut off. This is quite easy to do with a thin grinding disc.
It might mean that you have to buy a new camshaft nut, but it avoids having to TIG weld the broken piece of cylinder head back on.
I've had to cut a few nuts off like this. Sometimes they are just that tight.