250 Monza not charging

[cooperplace]

I guess all that's needed is to attach the two alternator leads to any 2 terminal diagonally across from one another on the block, then use my meter to read off how to hook up to the other two?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= cooperplace ...
" If you have any thoughts on how to wire up the bridge-block, I'd be very grateful, "

____ No-need to be grateful Peter, as it's VERY simple !! ...
__ The preferred b.block should have a pair of AC.inputs located at opposed corners, to which you simply connect your Monza's pair of alt.stator wire-leads, (one lead to each AC.terminal).
Then the b.block's POSitive -(or '+') output-terminal gets connected to the same wire-circuit as the battery's pos.terminal-post. _ And that's basically all there is to it !
____ I have LOTS more I could add about this topic but, looks like it will have to wait until later for now.

Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ When I opened this thread about an hour ago, THIS/new-post of yours wasn't yet then listed,, and I then spent a little time editing my earlier post (which was listed early this-morning), whilst apparently you coincidentally added your still newer post here on this/new-page.
So I've now quit adding to my previous-post above and have rather began responding to your latest post here. ...

I guess all that's needed is to attach the two alternator leads to any 2 terminal diagonally across from one another on the block, then use my meter to read off how to hook up to the other two?

____ NO, as it's not really that simple ! ...
__ Back in the early days, most-all bridge-blocks provided only-ONE clue as to which of it's four terminals were which ! ... The only terminal which was (sort of) labeled, was the POSitive-post, which was only recognizable by it's rather somewhat un-obvious oddity of having it's nearby 90-degree corner cut-off/(rather flattened to a pair of 45-degree corners), so ya had to be trained to realize & recognize that the obscure clue indicated that that particular corner-terminal was supposed to be the positive-output and-thus that the opposite-corner must have to be the NEGative-output and-so therefore the other two remaining unidentified corner-terminals must have to be the AC.inputs ! _ Another similar tip-off clue (instead of the single blunted-corner on an otherwise perfect-block),, is that, of the b.block's four terminal-posts, only the positive-post will be out of similar alignment-order with the other three connection-posts' rather unified alignment-order.
However since at-least the '80s, most-all b.blocks have been rather well-labeled with up to all-four terminals quite clearly marked with very obvious label-markings. _ So you really shouldn't have to be concerned with making any connection-mistakes in regards to properly connecting-up a recently purchased bridge-block !



" how to hook up to the other two? "

____ Well, you don't have-to connect-up both of the "other two" terminal-posts (of the b.block), as the stock n-c.charging-system just makes-use of only the positive power-pulses of the alternator's AC.production (and intentionally ignores all the negative-pulses) ! _ So that thusly means that you (probably) won't be making any connection to the b.block's NEG.terminal (unless you wish to power something-else that'll have to be workable rather with a positive-ground system.)




____ Now back to finally getting-around to adding some of the related stuff I was considering including within my previous-post above...
__ A bridge-block offers some advantageous-benefits over the stock rectifier/regulator-unit, in that for one thing, a fair amount of extra alternator-power is allowed to become available ! ...
Ducati rated their old 4-spd.Monza's 4-pole alternator-model at 40-watts and their 6-pole alt.model at 60-watts,, of which, I've accepted were suitable 'ratings' and it made fairly logical sense that the 6-pole version made 50% more power, as it had 50% more magnets, (assuming them all to be of pretty-much the same magnetic-strength).
Whether Ducati's bulky and rather heavy regulator-unit's complex-circuitry actually allows all the alternator's available power to be useable, is quite doubtful however ! _ So the relatively-simple circuit-pathway (of the simple power-diodes) within the b.block certainly allows more of the available alt.power to rather be unsubdued and-thus more consumable by the actual load-system ! _ So with Ducati's impeding regulation-circuit taken off-line & out-of-the-way, it's then certainly reasonable to expect at-least around 10% more power available for the load-system.
__ And due-to Ducati's very unique dual-wound stator-windings (which MUST mutually interact beneficially with each-other [when both circuits are HALF-wave rectified]), the ingenious alternator-design is able to partially self-regulate, as the greater the load-system consumes power, the more power the alternator will then be enabled to produce !! ...
__ The stock Monza-type (USA.version) load-system employed a 35/30-watt sealed-beam, however I often replaced those with 45/40w.versions -(made for 6v.jeeps), which the stock charging-system managed just-fine with no notable downside ! _ So it's fairly expected that without the stock-regulator's impeding-interference, and with rather simple straight diode rectification (like a b.block provides),, a modern 65/45w.headlight could quite likely be kept satisfied (so long as engine [& mag.rotor-RPM] speed is kept sufficient) !


Enlightening-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[cooperplace]

Hi Bob,

It works! I wired it exactly as you said, and it charges just fine. At idle it's about 12.35v, and with revs it goes to about 15v.

V pleased. Thank you very much for your excellent advice,

cheers

Peter.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= cooperplace ...
" It works! "

____ How about telling us where you got your bridge-block, what it's rating-specs are, and how much it cost ?



" I wired it exactly as you said, and it charges just fine. "

____ Then that means I was right, (as I expected), that your alt.stator wire-lead's remaining crumby-insulation is still doing it's job of keeping the bare-wires apart so that they're not short-circuiting !
And also, this confirms that the Jap.regulator was not meant to work with the grounded alt.stator-circuit, (as I expected) !



" At idle it's about 12.35v, "

____ Was that v.reading taken from between the b.block's POS.output & ground, or ground & the battery's POS.terminal-post ?



" with revs it goes to about 15v. "

____ This v.reading must've been taken with the battery on-line, cuz otherwise the voltage-output of the b.block alone would be much higher than just "15v", (assuming revs above 3-grand).
This demonstrates the battery's tendency to regulate the system-voltage,, but that it's voltage-level reached as high as 15-volts, indicates that the system was-not balanced when you took that v.reading. _ So you should try that high-rev test again with the main-lights turned-on.
__ If you ride much with the lights turned-off, then the battery's ability to keep system-voltage below 15-volts will be overtaxed and-thus the battery's life will suffer !
So you need to keep the system rather balanced either by keeping the lights turned-on, or by connecting-up an On/Off-switch between the b.block and one of the alt.stator wire-leads, so that about 2/3rds of the alternator's producible power can then be taken off-line for when the lights are off, (which will help keep the system balanced [mainly for the battery's sake] ).
There are several methods for taking partial alt.power off-line. _ Please ask about that, if interested.



" Thank you very much for your excellent advice, "

____ And thank-you for paying-attention (and not jumping-the-gun onward-ahead, bypassing logical-steps).


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[cooperplace]

Hi Bob,

I got it from Jaycar, in Australia:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZR1324
where it cost AU$4.95 and it's rated at 35A, 400V.
The voltage readings are taken between earth and battery positive, with lights off. I will take a high reading again with the lights on.

By the way, the headlight has a 25W globe in it, and some web searching shows it to be a H6M base. On Ebay I've ordered an Osram 35W H6M, which will help use up that spare alternator capacity. I will ride with the lights on.

Thanks again for your very comprehensive and helpful advice, which is much appreciated.
Peter.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= cooperplace ...
" it cost AU$4.95 and it's rated at 35A, 400V. "

____ That's a little higher in price but also rated much stronger (than more common versions) !
Since it's rated for over 6-amps, it shouldn't need to be heat-sunk to a metal-mount.



" The voltage readings are taken between earth and battery positive, "

____ Then that means your reading taken at idle was basically measuring the battery's voltage.



" The voltage readings are taken
with lights off. "

____ Then that's why the system-voltage reached so high as "15" volts, as the system was then mis-balanced and the (insufficiently sized) battery's ability to absorb such excess power thusly allowed system-voltage to climb higher than ought be allowed.



" I will take a high reading again with the lights on. "

____ Then much more of the alternator's produced power will be consumed, so that there's then a lot less leftover (if any) for the battery to have-to absorb,, and therefore the system-voltage should be rather slightly higher than that of the battery-itself.
__ To determine what's-what when you run that next test, first check the battery's stagnant-voltage just prior to running the engine. - (Note that I said "engine" and not 'bike', as I don't think it would be too safe for ya to be running your Duke down the road whilst trying to read your v.meter !- [Hopefully this attempt at humor will get a chuckle to help cancel the anger of the one fellow who I know will get unduly irate about it !] )



" the headlight has a 25W globe in it,
I've ordered an Osram 35W H6M, which will help use up that spare alternator capacity. "

____ The extra 10-watts of power-consumption will quite likely more than cancel the gained difference in charging-system output (between the stock regulator-circuitry and the slightly-increased amount from the rather un-complex b.block's pair of power-diodes).
But since the stock-system can easily handle the 35w.light-bulb/globe, you could've rather ordered a 45w.version, (unless you intend mostly under 3500-RPM riding) !



" I will ride with the lights on. "

____ Doing so will better keep your power & load systems rather balanced, so that the battery will then easily handle any remaining differences !
__ The only downside (of running with lights on) of-course is slightly reduced fuel-millage.



" Thanks again for your very comprehensive and helpful advice, "

____ Of-course you're welcome Peter ! _ And that you find my extensively-detailed chosen wording to be "comprehensive", indicates that YOU, (in these-days of 'chat' wording), are at-least fairly capable of still comprehending sentence-meaning with more than just a half-dozen contained words !


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[cooperplace]

I'm wondering if the bridge block could be improved upon. In a short ride around the block, before the wheel bearing collapsed, it blew an indicator bulb. I can't recall if the headlight was on. So I could in future always be sure to have the headlight on. Or I could fit a 65W headlight bulb: I think there's one on Ebay.

But there are also these $6 12v 4-pin motorcycle regulator/rectifiers on Ebay, eg

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-Voltage- ... 3cdebc5e64

has anyone tried such a thin on a 250?

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= cooperplace ...
" I'm wondering if the bridge block could be improved upon.
In a short ride around the block, it blew an indicator bulb. "

____ Well, it could certainly be fair to blame that component of your system if you happened to be riding at high-RPMs and the battery wasn't on-line at the time when the light blew. _ But assuming that the battery was connected & performing it's expected functions,, then it's rather likely that vibration is what actually broke the light's filament, as that's rather a fairly common occurrence.



" I can't recall if the headlight was on. "

____ What "indicator bulb" do you have wired-up so that it could still possibly be powered-up while the headlight is-not turned-on ??



" So I could in future always be sure to have the headlight on. "

____ By having the headlight turned-on, any leftover excess alt.power-production will then be much reduced and-thus accordingly easier for the battery to absorb & curtail -(by conversion-regulation), depending on the battery's size.
__ What size is your battery (amp-hour wise) ?
If your battery is too small, and the headlight was off during high engine-revs,, then such circumstance would result with raised system-voltage and-so could indeed allow other lights to blow-out. _ Because smaller batteries have lesser ability to absorb & convert excess-power down-to the battery's own voltage-level range, (thus leaving system-voltage too high for any small loads to cope with).



" I could fit a 65W headlight bulb: "

____ With Ducati's unique alt.stator-winding and 'dual half-wave' rectification, it could be possible to fully power such a high wattage-load,, but rather high engine/alt.rotor-RPMs would have-to be maintained significantly above the normally expected 'average-RPM' (of regular riding).
__ There's a rather unique headlight-bulb (made by Sylvania) that's especially intended just for motorcycles, which has a more appropriate 65/45w.rating that would be more suitable,, but it's 65w.high-beam couldn't be left on for too long without also keeping engine-revs well above average (so the battery doesn't run-down). _ Unfortunately though, it's H4-type socket isn't a straightforward installation-fit into the stock headlight fittings. _ So you probably won't find a suitable headlight-bulb that's stronger than 45-watts.



" there are also these $6 12v 4-pin motorcycle regulator/rectifiers on Ebay, "

____ That's certainly bargain-priced for such an item ! _ But, while there's much good-quality products to be had from China, they unfortunately don't have a quality-control rating that could tip-off their good-stuff from the overwhelming worthless-junk that gets offered for sale hidden along-with. _ So ya always take a significant risk-chance whenever buying most-anything shipped from over-there.
__ Anyhow, it's fairly questionable whether those units really do include an actual regulator-circuit ! _ And even if they did, it would only be intended just for ungrounded-type alt.stators (which are expected to be full-wave rectified),, and-so would leave you in the same-boat as you were before (with the other std.type Jap.unit that you had connected-up previously) !



" has anyone tried such a thin on a 250? "

____ Now you're thinking like the common-majority of whom only assume that a regulator needs to be included (rather than any lesser known-of, more logical means of power-control). ...
__ Their mentality is to produce gobs of excessive power and-then try & attempt to reign-it-down & keep it under control. _ Whereas Ducati & I instead prefer to keep the power-production & power-consumption rather 'balanced'.
So whenever the main-lights are-not turned-on,, then it's logically better to rather cut-off an appropriate amount of charging-power, (which is at-least as easily done as the installation of any regulator-circuit), just as many Jap.bikes used-to logically do as well !
__ Other (mere fairly-knowledgeable) members here, have indeed tried such full-wave rectifiers connected-up to n-c.250-Monza alternators after UNgrounding them first, whilst under the mistaken-impression that Ducati's grounded stator-leads are as of same as that of an ordinary std.center-tap arrangement, of which, they're actually NOT !



" I'm wondering if the bridge block could be improved upon. "

____ As I've previously mentioned,, it's power-output could be easily cut (by over 50%), by simply disconnecting one of the alt.stator-leads (connected to it's AC.inputs) !
I always used-to do that with an ordinary On/Off toggle-switch (most-often mounted on the back/top of the headlamp), and that-way I then enjoyed a rider-choice of whether the battery receives charging-juice at either a slow or fast rate.
Jap.bikes however would rather have their light-switches be actually '2-in-1 switches' with the extra switch-circuit allowing their additional alt.power to only become available along-with the activation of the main-lights, (thus simplifying the matter [for the mass-simpletons who the Jap.marketing smartly wished to appeal to]!).
Besides either of those two switching-methods (to help control charging-power),, a simple relay-circuit could be used to switch the secondary/back-up alt.power to the bridge-block's input, so that whenever the main-lights are turned-on, the extra charging-power would then also go on-line.
__ I suggest that you choose one of these switching-methods, especially if you intend to often ride at high-RPMs with lights turned-off.
Or if it's rather the case that your chosen battery is actually too small (to well handle all it's tasks),, then you could rather choose to add a 14-volt Zener-diode circuit, to help the battery hold-down the system-voltage (from climbing too high during high-RPM riding).
__ Please let me know which power-controlling circuit you'd prefer to install, and I'll then offer you related instructions.


Duke-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[cooperplace]

Hi Bob,

Thanks as always for the very informative reply. I like the idea of the Zener diode. Do you have any specific recommendations in that area?
thanks
Peter