Ducati non-standard headlight? Pic-heavy

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" Here are some pictures of the Aprilia headlight unit "

____ It appears to be the same lamp-shell model-type as employed on Mach-I & pre-1966 Monza models, except that the holes for the light-switch & key-switch are missing. _ So that sort-of suits it for your n-c.Mk3 (somewhat better than the headlamp you've had mounted).



" don't know what is the deal with the steel and bondo patch. "

____ I'd suspect that it once was a damaged trade-in towards a new Monza headlamp, and since got refinished for some (later abandoned) project.



" The parts book shows a bucket without an indicator light hole on the top of the bucket and there is no indicator light listed for the 250 Mark 3 NC 5 speed. "

____ Until I find my-own parts-book to confirm, I'll have-to take your word for it,, cuz I was fairly sure that all such similar headlamp-models (intended for DUCATIs) included a high-beam warning-light.
I guess I could be wrong about that though.

____ I wish I could be with you when you install this headlamp and-thus have-to mess-around with the wiring, cuz I find that kind of work to be pleasing to accomplish (when done well & patently without haste).
__ Since you have kill-switch related wiring added through your headlamp, that additional circuit helps pave-the-way to other potentially useful circuits to add to your electrical-system...
For instance you could add a handy bridge-block and salvage otherwise wasted power to-be diverted for either charging a battery or keeping your low-beam lite-up at all times (to supplement your optional high-beam),, or at the very least, merely keep your magneto's ign.power-coil cooler running (which helps save fuel).
__ If you really don't want to have your ride spending too much down-time during the riding-season, then just put-off this swap-project until late-September or so.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Moto Chuck]

Bob,
I suspect I will leave it for this fall or winter to swap out the headlight bucket and do it the same time I am repainting the tank.

" The parts book shows a bucket without an indicator light hole on the top of the bucket and there is no indicator light listed for the 250 Mark 3 NC 5 speed. "

____ Until I find my-own parts-book to confirm, I'll have-to take your word for it,, cuz I was fairly sure that all such similar headlamp-models (intended for DUCATIs) included a high-beam warning-light.
I guess I could be wrong about that though.

Here is a link to Motoscrubs page of the parts manual. http://www.motoscrubs.com/Ducati_Manuals/Ducati_250cc_5speed_Spare_Parts_Catalogue/pl_images/5-spd-250-final_Page_084.jpg

I have seen a number of NC Mark3s with indicators on top of the bucket though. It's possible both are correct.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" Here is a link to Motoscrubs page of the parts manual. "

____ I'm not really positive but, that page looks like it may be from the 1966 parts-book (which also covers the 1965-Sebring).
That confirms that the later n-c.Mark-3 type Mark-three models employed the rather plain* '150mm' headlamp-model (* without instrument-holes).
So it seems that the headlamp which you happen to have, is perfectly suited for your n-c.Mark-3.



" I have seen a number of NC Mark3s with indicators on top of the bucket though. It's possible both are correct. "

____ I'm not really sure about that anymore these-days, as I haven't seen a totally stock n-c.Mark-3 since before 1976, (so memory is shady).
I also once owned, (and-thus was exposed-to, the longest), a n-c.Mark-III which had the same 130mm-headlamp as is stock on the 1966 250-Scrambler model,, however that particular Duke was known to be no-longer stock, so it's headlamp may not have been it's original.
I'll still have-to find my 1965 250-models parts-book (which doesn't cover any 350-models), to determine for-sure which size headlamp was stock on the 1964 Mark-III type models.
However I do KNOW for-sure that the early Mark-III model employed a 130mm headlamp (which was exactly the same as stock on the Motocross-models) !
Anyhow,, I would've expected the high-beam indicator to have finally been included rather with the newest of n-c.Mark-3s. _ So I'm now thinking that any Mark-3 with a 150mm-headlamp including a HB.indicator-light, is probably-not original.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Moto Chuck]

Thanks Bob!

To my memory the 1964 Mk3 and possibly the early scramblers had the old pill box style headlamp bucket with no instrumentation. At least that is what Mssr.s Walker, Cathcart, and Bailey always show pictures of.

Thankfully next winter's project is to be a cafe street bike and other than trying to keep most of the parts to about the correct age, I won't be concerned much with factory originality of the parts. I just want to put together a bike that looks like it could have been built by an enthusiast in the late '60s or early '70s with parts from the local cycle salvage.

Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" To my memory the 1964 Mk3 and possibly the early scramblers had the old pill box style headlamp bucket with no instrumentation. "

____ The first Duke-model to employ the 130mm 'pancake'/pill-button style lamp-shell was the 4-speed 'Motocross' model,, which (along with it's electrical-system), was adopted over-to the early 4-speed Mark-III. _ But whereas that pill-button lamp-shell was retained by the Motocross/Scrambler-model through 1965,, the Mark-III however, got a speedo.head mountable type of lamp-shell (probably like your 150mm version), by near-around the same time as when the 5-speed motor versions came-out in 1963,
(which I'm pretty-sure is also about when the concocted brake-light circuit was added to both AC.powered models).
__ Back during those days, my-own exposure to DUCATIs was limited to my friends' older relative's DUKEs (which were mostly Motocross & Monza models), and only 2 or 3 were Diana/Mark-III models ! _ So my main-experience with Mark-III models came to be only with well used examples after 1965, when by then their originality could be in question. _ Thus I regretfully can't be absolutely positive about what-all was actually stock on such pre-1965 DUKEs, (back before I began visiting the local Ducati-shop/showroom).



" next winter's project is to be a cafe street bike "

____ Is that project also based upon a Duke-model ?


Duke-Cheers,
-Bob

[Moto Chuck]

" next winter's project is to be a cafe street bike "

____ Is that project also based upon a Duke-model ?



It will be the white bike on the right of the photo. Right now it is set up as a track bike or racer. It has a total loss electrical system.

It was built on a square style Monza/Sebring frame with a 350 engine and a Desmo head with a Formula cam.

I have to build a street bike electrical system as well as add lights, horn, muffler...etc.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" It will be the white bike "

____ I've provided a zoomed-in view of it, below.


" It was built on a square style
Sebring frame with a 350 engine and a Desmo head with a Formula cam. "

____ That's much like an old pet-project of mine, (which I never finished) !
Mine was to have the Red&White 350DESMO-cam. _ Is that what you mean by "Formula cam" ?



" I have to build a street bike electrical system as well as add lights, "

____ Do you intend to run a headlight which consumes over 45-watts ?


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Moto Chuck]

Bob,
According to Malcome Tunstall, there were at least two desmo cams available that were available for racing purposes that were commonly known as a "Formula Cam". One was still reasonably tractable and could be ridden on the street. My impression is that this was the spec cam on the 250 SCD factory racer though I can't say that for certain.
The other was a full tilt, Katy bar the door, race cam that wasn't happy unless you were flogging the engine hard. Malcome told me this cam, it was very hard to set up because the rockers got tight at one or two points in the cam's rotation with the closing and the opening rocker trying to squeeze the keepers out of the valve slot.

I think I have the more moderate of the race cams. After all this time there is no paint left on the cam to identify it.

" I have to build a street bike electrical system as well as add lights, "

____ Do you intend to run a headlight which consumes over 45-watts ?

I intend to run as small a set of lights as seems to look about right on the bike. I try not to run vintage bikes after dark. Between not wanting to risk a vintage machine in after dark riding and the dodgy electrics on many old bikes, I would much rather ride a modern bike after the sun gos down.

[Nick]

Electrex World sells a complete flywheel/stator/rectifier unit for the old Ducs which bolts right on and gives you a completely modern system. I installed one on my 250 N/C and am very happy with it. Bright lights, plenty of charging power and electronic rectifier/regulator. I posted pics, etc. here a few months ago. No worries about night riding with bright lights and modern electrics.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" According to Malcome Tunstall, there were at least two desmo cams available that were available for racing purposes that were commonly known as a "Formula Cam". "

____ I certainly can-not confirm that the term "Formula Cam" (or 'formula cam') was ever "commonly known", (at-least within the USA) ! _ That term would seem to reference a F1D.cam which was the racing-only DESMO-cam for the Formula-1 factory-racers, and next to impossible to obtain (without buying an entire F1D.factory-racer). _ And also, I believe I was told that those F1D.cams can't even possibly be fitted to work within std.production DESMO-heads.
SO... the "two desmo cams" that were actually "available for racing purposes", must've REALLY been the 'Special' 350 & 450 DESMO-cams, (which COULD be fitted within (modified) std.DESMO-heads !



" One was still reasonably tractable and could be ridden on the street. "

____ That's probably the 'Special'/Red&White 350DESMO-cam.



" My impression is that this was the spec cam on the 250 SCD factory racer though I can't say that for certain. "

____ I'm pretty-sure that the D.cam for that factory-only racer can't fit & work with/in a std.production DESMO-head.



" The other was a full tilt,
race cam "

____ That's probably the 'Special'/Gray&White 450DESMO-cam.
__ And like the Red&White, both of these Special DESMO-cams require that the tunnel-opening (into the cam & follower cavity), be modified, in order for either Special-D.cam to-be inserted & installed into an otherwise std.DESMO-head !



" I think I have the more moderate of the race cams. "

____ Then that's probably the Red&White Special-D.cam,, because other than aftermarket/non-factory D.camshafts, I don't know of any other (non-stock / non-Special) DESMO-cams which could've possibly been actually acquired through regular/ordinary acquisition-channels.
And in order to obtain a factory 'Formula' D.cam, (which I do believe was indeed possible to accomplish),, then ya'd certainly have-to have some kind of privileged connection with the associated department.
__ Have you ever measured the intake-lobe's lift-height (of the D.cam in your race-engine) ?
The lobe-lift of my Red&White is 12mm !




" I intend to run as small a set of lights as seems to look about right on the bike. "

____ Okay then, how are you expecting to find the electrical-parts you'll need ?
Are you only interested in original-type stock charging-system parts, or what ?


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
DCT-Bob