Ducati non-standard headlight? Pic-heavy

[Moto Chuck]

Most of us are used to seeing the "peaked" Aprilia headlight on narrow case Mk3 Ducatis and in fact this is the headlight housing that is listed in the parts book. It has what I would call an eyebrow over the top of the headlight lens.


The headlight (also Aprilia brand) that was on my bike when I got it was different as pictured here;

Note that the headlight is smaller than the "peaked" Aprilia headlight. The headlight itself is a sealed beam unit instead of the separate lens, reflector and bulb of the peaked Aprilia headlight. Also note the matt black finish on the headlight bucket and the upper triple clamp.

I have been told by some folks that were mechanics and assemblers at Ducati dealers, that the headlight is one that came on some new bikes out of the crates. I have also in recent times found several other images of Mk3 bikes that had the same headlight. I won't post everything I have found but here are a couple of the easiest to recognize.



In the absence of any other information that this was parts variability on the bikes supplied to the Berliners during the 1960s.

In addition to the headlight bucket I have noticed that whereas my Mk3 has a 100 mph speedometer, I have seen a mix of Mk3 bikes with both 100 and 150 mph speedos. Almost all of the Mach 1s I have seen have 150 mph units. I have a 350 Sebring (square style) that has a 150 mph gauge. I have never seen a listing anywhere of which bikes had 100 mph speedos and which bikes had 150 mph units.

[amartina75]

you seem to be trying to prove that there is some sort of discrepancy in the parts books, and that there was a "whatever part is closest to Mario he'll use" syndrome at the Ducati factory.
Like you were trying to argue in your other post regarding brake "fins". I believe Bob said it best with the following quotes.

"It's my-own fairly-good opinion that that somewhat wide-spread notion is way overblown,, cuz for within the USA.market, I've always found pretty-much near 100% parts consistency for most all original-stock model-lines ! _ In fact, I can't recall EVER seeing any part (on any stock model) that wasn't exactly as indicated within factory parts-books ! " DewCatTea-Bob

"I challenge anyone to come-up with an ACTUAL example of any stock part that wasn't fully intended to be left consistently remaining as a common production-line part (which was only relatively briefly employed as a non-permanent stand-in, for any model-year)." DewCatTea-Bob

I am also unaware of any case where there has been any discrepancy in a parts book, or where Ducati has switched back and forth between parts for the same model of bike.
IN FACT the opposite is true every time a part was changed for a new design there is a record of it in the parts books. Drawlings were made, (NOT ON A COMPUTER BY HAND) detailed records were made of when EXACTLY the change was made and what engine number the change occured at (ALSO BY HAND, STILL NO COMPUTERS) the ammount of time Ducati spent on keeping records would have been very great. If you believe there is a discrepancy in a parts book you most likely have the wrong parts book or ther is a non standard part fitted to your bike. If there is a part on your bike that doesn't match what the parts book says then the MOST likely reason is that the part did not come originally on your bike, or your bike is not what you believe it to be. (not that the parts book is wrong)

your examples of headlights are only a few that Ducati had produced for them. headlights were one of the things that changed most. BUT they are all well documented in the books.
there were peaked rims and flat rims, rims for a sealed beam light, 130mm, 150mm, ect...ect...
if you look carefully at the parts books the differences in the headlights were BECAUSE WHAT WAS INSIDE THEM CHANGED. some headlight buckets are only different by one or two holes, but they were still given a different part number!

there were several NC parts books produced, and Widecase books, there was even a 1966 ONLY parts book, that most people probably have not seen. (my brother has a copy)

the widecase book even covers the Bastard half NC half WC Scrambler that was made briefly.

all of the evidence shows that Ducati was NOT careless in their record keeping, and did not choose parts based on "whatever is in the pile"
they did however keep carefull records of changes and differences between bikes for different markets.

[Rick]

I don't know what year bike you have, but since both the headlight shell and top triple clamp have the same paint finish that doesn't match the rest of the bike, if it originally came with the pill box headlight and clipons, someone may have swapped the headlight and top clamp to get a speedometer and a more upright riding position.
Rick

[Moto Chuck]

Amartina75,
"Whatever is in the parts bin" is as much of a joke as anything but Ducati did use a lot of different parts on given if they are all documented. The problem is that all the documents are often nearly impossible to find.

Ducati was a state owned company at the time and their main concern was keeping the employees at the Bologna factory busy assembling motorcycles. If this meant changing the previously specified part to continue production then so be it. They probably did document all of these changes somewhere, but in the decade of the 2010s it is deucedly hard to find documentation on what was original equipment on any given bike.

"if you look carefully at the parts books the differences in the headlights were BECAUSE WHAT WAS INSIDE THEM CHANGED. some headlight buckets are only different by one or two holes, but they were still given a different part number!" If you look at the three 130mm headlights in my example you will notice that each bucket has different hole patterns and different indicator lights. If there are three or more 130mm headlight buckets out there maybe you can give me the part number of the one that matches the one on my bike. I would also appreciate knowing why the incomplete piece on the top of the bucket is labeled "press to test" and what one was supposed to be testing by pressing the now missing part.

In short my experience and the experience of a couple of a couple of older mechanics I have worked with and an old Berliner district representative I know reflect the writings of Tom Bailey in his book Ducati Singles First Person. Bailey was a mechanic/assembler for a dealer around the NY area and setup and worked on a lot of single cyl. Ducatis.

I have reproduced a few of the paragraphs here;

The most bizarre deviations involve tail lights. These seemed intentional and seemed to have originated with the factory management. In the mid sixties the factory seemed to try several times to move away from the rectangular tail light/number plate unit to several different round tail light/number plate units. Whether this occurred because of shortages or cost factors is unknown. The end result was as if the factory had periodically ordered one or two case of a new tail light just to see who they would work. and what reaction they would draw.

(...Between 1963 and 1968 Ghost Motorcycles sold thousands of "special order" Ducatis in the Northeast each year. Many of their bikes were standard European models. Others were models based on Ghost specifications. And exactly what the specifications were is unknown.

During my years at the shop I observed fairly regular deviations from the standard model. Numerically "wrong" tail lights were by far the most common. There were valenced rear fenders on one shipment of round tank Monza Jr.'s. And Monza front fenders on some Dianas Mk3's. There were also different handlebar switches from time to time. And the 1965 and 1966 Mk3 seemed to regularly shift between the 4.2 gallon Mach 1 tank and the original Diana 4.5 gallon tank.

Ultimately, with the exception of the tail lights the variations seem to have been undertaken only in the interest of temporary expediency.

You can read more in Bailey's book. I hesitate to quote more only to not go overboard infringing on Mr Bailey's copyright.

Bailey's take on the situation is that: "Deviations from the official parts book occurred frequently." The parts deviations may have been documented somewhere but not in the parts catalogs at the dealership where Bailey worked. ...or at the dealerships here in Kansas for that matter. As far as the American Ducati scene I am coming to the conclusion that Mr Bailey has a much better understanding than Mick Walker who seems to know the British scene better than the brand's presence here in America.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ...
" Most of us are used to seeing the "peaked" Aprilia headlight on narrow case Mk3 Ducatis and in fact this is the headlight housing that is listed in the parts book.
The headlight (also Aprilia brand) that was on my bike when I got it was different as pictured "

____ Other than your lamp-shell's installed trim-ring, exactly how all else do you find it do be "different" ?



" Note that the headlight is smaller than the "peaked" Aprilia headlight. "

____ That's not so very obvious, so have you actually measured any distinct size difference ?



" The headlight itself is a sealed beam unit instead of the separate lens, reflector and bulb of the peaked Aprilia headlight. "

____ That's an update/change-over which took place beginning for the 1966 model-year of battery-powered models. _ The Mark-3 models rather had AC.power which was only meant to power just 25-watt headlight-bulbs, and-so ought-not have been originally matched-up together with such sealed-beam units which require 30 or 35 watts.
So my first-guess would be that someone ordered a headlight & mounting-rim/trim-ring for a 'Mark-3' out-of a WIDE-case parts-book, (probably not knowing any better).



" Also note the matt black finish on the headlight bucket and the upper triple clamp. "

____ Sort-of a nice-touch there but, too-bad such matching was never factory-stock !



" I have been told by some folks that were mechanics and assemblers at Ducati dealers, that the headlight is one that came on some new bikes out of the crates. "

____ Firstly, I'm left unsure whether your chosen-word "headlight" is actually referencing the 'sealed-beam' OR the 'headlamp',, but anyhow....
Initially, I'm first inspired to QUESTION their memories ! _ HOWEVER, when specifically taking into account your particular wording "some new bikes", then THAT'S quite assuredly no-doubt certainly true !
But rather-concerning just 250Mark-3 models only, then they most-likely had to have been in reference to WIDE-case versions.



" I have also in recent times found several other images of Mk3 bikes that had the same headlight. "

____ I thus-then assume you must be in main-reference rather to the 'trim-ring' style ?
It somewhat stands-to-reason that later/w-c.style headlight-parts would be easier to find (to replace such original-parts).



" In the absence of any other information that this was parts variability on the bikes supplied to the Berliners during the 1960s. "

____ Not-sure of your posted-sentence's intended main-point but,
surely you don't really expect any of those digital-pix to actually be as of original/stock factory-fresh models just exactly as they were produced right-off from the 1960s Ducati production-line,, now do you ?



" I have noticed that whereas my Mk3 has a 100 mph speedometer, I have seen a mix of Mk3 bikes with both 100 and 150 mph speedos. Almost all of the Mach 1s I have seen have 150 mph units. I have a 350 Sebring (square style) that has a 150 mph gauge. I have never seen a listing anywhere of which bikes had 100 mph speedos and which bikes had 150 mph units. "

____ All those (junky !) speedo.units were of such poor quality that they were lucky to survive destruction past 10k.miles, (never seen one that reached 14k !), and usually stopped working before 6k. _ And-so that was a part which was most-always needed & got replaced.
And when you'd order a new unit from Berliner,, if ya didn't specifically specify it's particular description, then their parts-shipper would send any speedo.head in stock,, so you'd get one with either a 80; 100; or 150MPH.clock !
So it's no-wonder at-all that any Duke-model could've ended-up with any speedo.model !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Moto Chuck]

I don't know what year bike you have, but since both the headlight shell and top triple clamp have the same paint finish that doesn't match the rest of the bike, if it originally came with the pill box headlight and clipons, someone may have swapped the headlight and top clamp to get a speedometer and a more upright riding position.
Rick

As an American 250 Mk3 of 1967 vintage this bike would have come with either the 130mm or 150 headlight containing the speedo. The bike would have also come with both the "buckhorn" handlebars and the race kit of clipons, rearsets and reverse cone megaphone. Most of the dealers in the midwest simply put the bike out on the floor with the buckhorn handlebars, silentium mufflers and regular footpegs. If you did not know to ask for the road race kit you did not get it. One mechanic told me that they hauled a lot of rearsets and clipon kits off to the dump after the narrow cases went obsolete and the dealer figured he was not going to be able to sell any more any time soon. Here in the midwest the Mk3s were often used as the basis for flat track motorcycles. Most bodywork was discarded and short megaphones were fitted.

When a local motorcycle salvage yard bought the old dealer's used and old stock parts I found several reverse cone megaphones in the parts pile that had never been put on. I snapped them up cheap! Sadly I could never find any extra rearsets or clipon kits.

[Moto Chuck]

WORKING ON THIS,
JUST WANT TO GET POSTED ASAP, IN LINE BEFORE ANYMORE POSTS BEAT ME.

Bob, Amartina75,

Just to keep the record straight, I am trying to have a civil discussion on this topic and not intending meaning to start arguments with anyone. You two have a different take on the history of Ducati parts and specifications than any other person I have ever met that was associated with Berliner or Ducati dealers back in the 1960s. Please don't take my statements or inquiries as an attempt to pick a fight.

Moto Chuck

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= Moto Chuck ....
" I am trying to have a civil discussion on this topic and not intending meaning to start arguments with anyone.
Please don't take my statements or inquiries as an attempt to pick a fight. "

____ That concern of yours is somewhat of a laugh (for me) ! _ It's my-own opinion that it's nothing-much to be concerned with at all ! _ And-so I wouldn't worry about such.
So let's just all agree that our (rather hastily) chosen wording is never expected to-be meant taken in any such negative-light, so that our straight-forward wording can then get straight-to our points WITHOUT any non-logical concern of needing to add hugs & kisses in hopes of not being taken as possibly hostile.
After-all, WE are 'grown-up MEN' here, (and not some dizzy-dames or kids) !
Okay? OK !

-Bob

[amartina75]

I will come back to this after Bob replies but, make one point first.
you have 4 pictures of headlights, only ONE appears to be in original condition. TWO are restored and cannot be used to prove or disprove anything, and the one from your bike,
clearly has been altered from its original state. painted flat black and some sort of non Ducati switch or light added, and who knows what else has been done that isn't easily seen in the picture.

[Moto Chuck]

I will come back to this after Bob replies but, make one point first.
you have 4 pictures of headlights, only ONE appears to be in original condition. TWO are restored and cannot be used to prove or disprove anything, and the one from your bike,
clearly has been altered from its original state. painted flat black and some sort of non Ducati switch or light added, and who knows what else has been done that isn't easily seen in the picture.

Well all the edges of the holes in the headlight bucket appear factory and do not show any signs of having been drilled at some later time. From close examination I am fairly confident that the headlight bucket and trim ring is as it came from Aprilia whether is was for this bike or another. It has been a couple of decades since I have been inside the bucket but I was looking for just that kind of modifications when I got the bike way back when. I do have a N.O.S. Aprilia 150mm peaked headlight assembly on the shelf but decided not to put it on the bike when an old mechanic and long time parts lady said that they thought the bucket was one of the originals.